Should American/Canadian sports adopt promotion/relegation?

[7,052,770]

There would be no need to debate about which cities get expansion teams and which don't -- whatever cities could support their teams well enough to allow them to acquire good enough talent and get there could get there. Fans in places like Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, the Dakotas, Hawaii, Montana, etc., wouldn't have to go their whole lives knowing they'd never get a major-league level team. And teams would no longer be able to have the attitude "Who cares if we win or not? Profit is all that matter$!"

On the other hand, we'd likely see some long-standing small market franchises get relegated and have trouble getting back or staying back. We'd also have to settle what happens to the stars when their teams get relegated, and a team like the Marlins would have even more trouble filling up their brand new stadium if their opponents were teams like the Syracuse Chiefs and the Louisville Bats.

[MurrayBannerman]

Have you watched any of either of these playoffs going on right now? There's no reason to get rid of that for some dumb relegation system that would require a major restructuring of American sports.

[Hatman 🍁]

No. Problem with regulation is it causes the same handful of teams to do well every year. The nice thing about North American sports is the diversity of the top teams every season. Of course, this is helped with a salary cap.

I admit though that the thought of relegation would be interesting to see.

[NewYorkExpress]

MLS should because that sport does that everywhere else.

Don't see a point for anyone else to do it though.

[7,052,770]

Have you watched any of either of these playoffs going on right now? There's no reason to get rid of that for some dumb relegation system that would require a major restructuring of American sports.

Who says relegation would get rid of the playoffs? It would only concern the bottom 2-3 teams in the NHL, NBA, etc. Nothing would have to change for the teams at the top.

ETA: Mexico's soccer league has both promotion/relegation and an 8-team playoff (out of 18 total teams).

No. Problem with regulation is it causes the same handful of teams to do well every year. The nice thing about North American sports is the diversity of the top teams every season.

Is that really related to relegation though, rather than the totally unregulated free-market atmosphere of European sports? I would think that the EPL would stay as top-heavy as it is even if it abandoned relegation.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Have you watched any of either of these playoffs going on right now? There's no reason to get rid of that for some dumb relegation system that would require a major restructuring of American sports.

Who says relegation would get rid of the playoffs? It would only concern the bottom 2-3 teams in the NHL, NBA, etc. Nothing would have to change for the teams at the top.

ETA: Mexico's soccer league has both promotion/relegation and an 8-team playoff (out of 18 total teams).

No. Problem with regulation is it causes the same handful of teams to do well every year. The nice thing about North American sports is the diversity of the top teams every season.

Is that really related to relegation though, rather than the totally unregulated free-market atmosphere of European sports? I would think that the EPL would stay as top-heavy as it is even if it abandoned relegation.

You have to remember about football in Europe is that most towns and cities that participate even in the top divisions are much smaller than even places like Jacksonville or Charlotte and that frequently the larger cities have many teams. There are, I think, 10 clubs in London in top two divisions of English football each with its own niche and area of support (although Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea are larger than the others). Meanwhile, in New York there are only 2 teams in NFL.

[MurrayBannerman]

Have you watched any of either of these playoffs going on right now? There's no reason to get rid of that for some dumb relegation system that would require a major restructuring of American sports.

Who says relegation would get rid of the playoffs? It would only concern the bottom 2-3 teams in the NHL, NBA, etc. Nothing would have to change for the teams at the top.

ETA: Mexico's soccer league has both promotion/relegation and an 8-team playoff (out of 18 total teams).

Still, that doesn't change the massive infrastructure problems that would arise from a relegation system. Not a single minor league park is major league capable.

Then you have the cultural aversion to it. People not wanting to effectively lose their teams. And the massive decline in talent from these minor league teams (Yes, the Astros, Diamondbacks, Cubs, etc... are FAR better than anything in AAA).

[Hatman 🍁]

Have you watched any of either of these playoffs going on right now? There's no reason to get rid of that for some dumb relegation system that would require a major restructuring of American sports.

Who says relegation would get rid of the playoffs? It would only concern the bottom 2-3 teams in the NHL, NBA, etc. Nothing would have to change for the teams at the top.

ETA: Mexico's soccer league has both promotion/relegation and an 8-team playoff (out of 18 total teams).

No. Problem with regulation is it causes the same handful of teams to do well every year. The nice thing about North American sports is the diversity of the top teams every season.

Is that really related to relegation though, rather than the totally unregulated free-market atmosphere of European sports? I would think that the EPL would stay as top-heavy as it is even if it abandoned relegation.

You may be right. It certainly would be fun, but I'm not sure if it's the right way to go.

This reminds me of that German billionaire who took a small low division club and spent millions to rise it up to the Bundesliga.

[Franzl]

It would certainly make the socialized American system more efficient.

[President Tyrion]

God no

It's a wonderfully fun idea in theory, but club soccer is pretty much the worst in practice. Maybe correlation isn't causation, but I really, really hate the idea of such a ridiculous oligarchy.

[dead0man]

I love the idea of it and it could probably work for hockey and basketball, maybe even baseball.  No chance it would work in the NFL though.

[Gass3268]

I think it should be the goal for MLS, but they need to get settled before they could even try it.

[Хahar 🤔]

No.

[Lief 🗽]

Promotion/relegation is a good system, but it just wouldn't make any sense with American sporting culture.

[traininthedistance]

Have you watched any of either of these playoffs going on right now? There's no reason to get rid of that for some dumb relegation system that would require a major restructuring of American sports.

Who says relegation would get rid of the playoffs? It would only concern the bottom 2-3 teams in the NHL, NBA, etc. Nothing would have to change for the teams at the top.

ETA: Mexico's soccer league has both promotion/relegation and an 8-team playoff (out of 18 total teams).

No. Problem with regulation is it causes the same handful of teams to do well every year. The nice thing about North American sports is the diversity of the top teams every season.

Is that really related to relegation though, rather than the totally unregulated free-market atmosphere of European sports? I would think that the EPL would stay as top-heavy as it is even if it abandoned relegation.

Promotion/relegation is not necessary for the development of a small aristocracy of the same few teams dominating things every year: one only needs to look at college sports for a good example of that.  But it does basically guarantee such an aristocracy: field-levelers such as a rookie draft are difficult to impossible to put together; success begets followers (and the finances for a larger stadium), while failure begets a downward spiral as top players will never want to be relegated, fleeing to the haves.  I mean, are there any major leagues that use promotion/relegation that aren't basically a small handful of the same teams winning all the time?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Have you watched any of either of these playoffs going on right now? There's no reason to get rid of that for some dumb relegation system that would require a major restructuring of American sports.

Who says relegation would get rid of the playoffs? It would only concern the bottom 2-3 teams in the NHL, NBA, etc. Nothing would have to change for the teams at the top.

ETA: Mexico's soccer league has both promotion/relegation and an 8-team playoff (out of 18 total teams).

No. Problem with regulation is it causes the same handful of teams to do well every year. The nice thing about North American sports is the diversity of the top teams every season.

Is that really related to relegation though, rather than the totally unregulated free-market atmosphere of European sports? I would think that the EPL would stay as top-heavy as it is even if it abandoned relegation.

Promotion/relegation is not necessary for the development of a small aristocracy of the same few teams dominating things every year: one only needs to look at college sports for a good example of that.  But it does basically guarantee such an aristocracy: field-levelers such as a rookie draft are difficult to impossible to put together; success begets followers (and the finances for a larger stadium), while failure begets a downward spiral as top players will never want to be relegated, fleeing to the haves.  I mean, are there any major leagues that use promotion/relegation that aren't basically a small handful of the same teams winning all the time?

The English First Division before 1976

[Lief 🗽]

Eh, the dominance of a handful of teams is separate from relegation/promotion. The English league has only really been dominated by a small group of teams since the 80s or so, and especially since the mid-1990s. That has a lot more to do with TV money, changes in transfer regulations (see the Bosman ruling and just a general move towards more foreign players in the 90s), and foreign owners coming in and massively investing in the clubs. Before that, the league was much more dynamic year to year. The French league as well is historically very dynamic, if I remember correctly, though now with Paris Saint Germain probably less so.

I don't think there are any soccer leagues that are as equal as the super-regulated NFL, that's true. But at the same time, many big European leagues are not as historically dominated by one team as say the Yankees and the World Series is.

(This makes me think someone should calculate the gini coefficient for number of league/championship titles won for different sports leagues to see which is the most equal and unequal.)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Gully and Lief are correct, but another important detail needs to be mentioned.

Dominance of a handful of teams in the Premier League is largely a result of... well... the existence of the Premier League. Which is independent of the Football League: it broke away in the early 1990s in order to hog pay-television revenue (which had previously not existed in Britain).

[traininthedistance]

Eh, the dominance of a handful of teams is separate from relegation/promotion. The English league has only really been dominated by a small group of teams since the 80s or so, and especially since the mid-1990s. That has a lot more to do with TV money, changes in transfer regulations (see the Bosman ruling and just a general move towards more foreign players in the 90s), and foreign owners coming in and massively investing in the clubs. Before that, the league was much more dynamic year to year. The French league as well is historically very dynamic, if I remember correctly, though now with Paris Saint Germain probably less so.

I don't think there are any soccer leagues that are as equal as the super-regulated NFL, that's true. But at the same time, many big European leagues are not as historically dominated by one team as say the Yankees and the World Series is.

(This makes me think someone should calculate the gini coefficient for number of league/championship titles won for different sports leagues to see which is the most equal and unequal.)

Yeah, I'm not so sure that you can separate the reality of TV money in today's sports world so easily.  What keeps the NFL relatively equitable is that all that TV money is pooled and shared- but is such a thing even really possible in a promotion/relegation system where clubs might not be in the same league from one year to the next, and thus have more of an independent existence?  Seems to me the promotion/relegation system militates towards TV money acting as a stratifier rather than an equalizer, so the fact that English football was more equal in the old days doesn't seem to have a whole lot of relevance on today anymore.  Obviously TV money will stratify matters in many other systems- look at the NCAA again, or how much more popular minor league baseball was back in ye olden days.  That's always gonna be a challenge- but, with a closed top league, you at least have the possibility of setting up revenue sharing and evening things out within that level at least.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

But with a closed league you guarantee that (for instance) Swansea can't go from fighting to stay in league football at all to being a premier league fixture in the blink of an eye (and to have got there by playing proper football). There is a democratic aspect to promotion and relegation.

[Хahar 🤔]

It's worth pointing out here (as a curiosity if nothing else) that America now does have something like a system of promotion and relegation in college sports. Of course, the reasons for promotion and relegation are only peripherally related to actual performance.