What's more important: democracy, or liberalism/secularism?

[Blue3]

A big discussion in the Turkey Coup thread right now.



 What's better?

 1. a democratically-elected government... even if it morphs into a populist elected-dictatorship that increasingly tries to consolidate power, oppresses free speech and the media and ethnic/religious minorities, treats women differently, and demolishes the separation of religion/government by making government lean more theocratic

 or

 2. a government that's secular and maintains a separation of religion/government, treats people equally regardless of ethnicity/religion/gender and other minority protections against mob-rule, doesn't imprison journalists or critics/protesters, protects other civil rights/liberties... even if it's an unelected organization (like the military) that takes control by force and may or may not reinstate a democratic government eventually




 *note: "liberalism " here doesn't mean Democrats or progressives or socialism or anything like that, it means the things I listed above

*note 2: "secularism" means separation of religion and state, the freedom of an individual to practice any religion or not practice any at all with the government remaining neutral and protect the freedom of religion

[Blue3]

A big discussion in the Turkey Coup thread right now.



 What's better?

 1. a democratically-elected government... even if it morphs into a populist elected-dictatorship that increasingly tries to consolidate power, oppresses free speech and the media and ethnic/religious minorities, treats women differently, and demolishes the separation of religion/government by making government lean more theocratic

That's not democracy. No one's saying Erdogan is particularly democratic. But starting an event which is pretty much guaranteed to result in deaths of innocent people and risks tipping your country into a civil war is the act of a murderer, and pretty stupid to boot.

That's illiberal democracy. Still democracy.

[Blue3]

Any new thoughts? Especially with the rising tide of nationalism in democracies right now.