NYT acquires 1995 Trump tax return; he deducted $916 million in business losses

[Seriously?]

Time for him to drop out.

Drop out for legally using the tax code and carrying over operating losses as he is allowed to? Give me a break. The amount of financial illiteracy on this board is astounding.

Further, the Times broke the law by publishing these documents. They should be ashamed of themselves.

[Seriously?]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/172772609627394049

A great deal of those who pay no income taxes are the extreme poor !
Many of these people fall below the poverty level, and their standard deduction, personal deduction and deduction for their children, allow them to not owe federal taxes. They are barely scrapping-by on living.
So of course there are many who don't pay taxes.
But they don't also have top-story penthouses, with gold trim chairs, and a personal full-size jet to fly around.
Big Difference ! !
Good Lord .... the trump campaign are idiots for putting out responses like this.
What do they think ? ..... that the rest of us are as stupid as their poorly educated supporters ?
This is basic tax accounting knowledge/information.
Geeesh !

There is a difference between income and wealth, especially when your trade is in the business of real estate. You amass wealth by building buildings. Most of the wealth is on paper until you sell the asset.  Then you pay the taxes on it. However, you can borrow against the value of the real estate to supplement your lifestyle.

It's the equivalent of most people with their homes. Once the mortgage is paid off, it's their biggest asset, but it's not taxable unless the home is sold and another home is not bought during a certain period of time, or upon death, if the equity in the home is worth enough to pay estate taxes on.

Nothing shocks me about this revelation. Trump is not a bad businessman by any means. He's smart to use the net carryover loss deduction, just as any smart businessman would. Taxes are burdensome operational costs when you are running a business. Minimizing your tax liability is what all businessmen aim for.

[Seriously?]

Well, Atlas just shows how much stupider it is than Trump for the umpteenth time this year. What an embarrassment of a thread.

You really need to stop this act. It's not cute, it's not clever...

This. Anyone still defending this piece of sh**t should be ashamed of themselves.

I'll defend Donald J. Trump this "piece of sh**t" as you called him until the cows come home on this. And Sprout's is right. the ignorance of the tax code on this place is amazing.

Quite frankly, if Trump didn't write off legitimate losses against income, he'd just be plain stupid.

You can argue the equity in these allowances until the cows come home. But to claim that Trump is evil for using net carryover losses, like every businessman does when they have a losing trade, is a stretch.

As the head of a company, Trump has an obligation to his employees and his investors to use the tax code diligently to preserve the value of the asset. Taxes erode equity and are to be mitigated to the maximum extent possible.

As always, the plain ignorance from the majority of red avatars on this forum is just staggering.

[Seriously?]

Time for him to drop out.

Drop out for legally using the tax code and carrying over operating losses as he is allowed to? Give me a break. The amount of financial illiteracy on this board is astounding.

Further, the Times broke the law by publishing these documents. They should be ashamed of themselves.

Which law did they break exactly? Freedom of speech/the press is pretty wide you do realize.

I'm pretty sure that "freedom" does not allow you to publish something that you illegally obtain and that is protected by privacy laws. Last I checked, Trump has not authorized the release of his tax returns.

[Seriously?]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/172772609627394049

A great deal of those who pay no income taxes are the extreme poor !
Many of these people fall below the poverty level, and their standard deduction, personal deduction and deduction for their children, allow them to not owe federal taxes. They are barely scrapping-by on living.
So of course there are many who don't pay taxes.
But they don't also have top-story penthouses, with gold trim chairs, and a personal full-size jet to fly around.
Big Difference ! !
Good Lord .... the trump campaign are idiots for putting out responses like this.
What do they think ? ..... that the rest of us are as stupid as their poorly educated supporters ?
This is basic tax accounting knowledge/information.
Geeesh !

There is a difference between income and wealth, especially when your trade is in the business of real estate. You amass wealth by building buildings. Most of the wealth is on paper until you sell the asset.  Then you pay the taxes on it. However, you can borrow against the value of the real estate to supplement your lifestyle.

It's the equivalent of most people with their homes. Once the mortgage is paid off, it's their biggest asset, but it's not taxable unless the home is sold and another home is not bought during a certain period of time, or upon death, if the equity in the home is worth enough to pay estate taxes on.

Nothing shocks me about this revelation. Trump is not a bad businessman by any means. He's smart to use the net carryover loss deduction, just as any smart businessman would. Taxes are burdensome operational costs when you are running a business. Minimizing your tax liability is what all businessmen aim for.

Paying taxes us a burdensome operational cost when you're living just above the breadline. By what means should they minimise their tax liability?

The whole damn system is set up to minimize tax liability. H&R Block runs ads about maximizing refunds for Christ's sake. Business deals are set up to maximize value by taking advantages of loopholes in the tax code.

I do not malign anyone for staying within the bounds of the law and being as aggressive as possible in minimizing their tax liability. No one likes to pay the government at the end of the day.

If Donald Trump lost money in an economic downturn and used the carryover losses in subsequent years, he's doing exactly what he's supposed to do. He's doing exactly what the tax code is aligned to allow you to do.

Those losses were allowed to be recognized over subsequent years for valid reasons of recapitalization. If you don't allow that kind of deductions, you may have developers not developing and building things. As a result, you get stagnation.

There's nothing sinister about it. There's nothing immoral about it.

[Seriously?]

I see Seriously got his talking points from Trump Tower and immediately got into work.

Sorry, I don't need talking points to discuss common sense.

Any single taxpayer that has ever used H&R Block to find as many deductions as possible is just as "guilty" as Trump is here. I can never, ever, ever malign someone for legally using the tax code to pay as little as posisble to the government.

Maybe you liberals want to pay as much tax as possible, but I for one do not. If you do, you are more than welcome to voluntarily write a check to the IRS.

[Seriously?]

Well, Atlas just shows how much stupider it is than Trump for the umpteenth time this year. What an embarrassment of a thread.

You really need to stop this act. It's not cute, it's not clever...

This. Anyone still defending this piece of sh**t should be ashamed of themselves.

I'll defend Donald J. Trump this "piece of sh**t" as you called him until the cows come home on this.

You can argue the equity in these allowances until the cows come home.

so when your mom comes home you'll stop defending Donald Trump?

Seriously? What are you in second grade?

[Seriously?]

LOL...so this "genius businessman" lost a billion dollars when the economy was doing great. He tanked a local economy, refused to pay workers. Then he gets rewarded by never having to pay taxes again? Huh?

So I guess the blue avatars think the economy is struggling because the middle class/poor class are making too much money at the expense of billionaires? This is everything that is wrong with our business climate right now. The billionaires get to pay less tax, the working poor get to fall through the cracks.

Donald Trump probably paid taxes the last time he went out to a store and bought something. He definitely paid taxes the last time he was required to file payroll taxes with the government for his 20,000 employees. He paid taxes probably somewhere around July 10th on his real property in New York City. The list goes on and on and on.

Trust me, there aren't a dearth of ways we pay taxes in this country.

As far as his income taxes go, I'll say it again and again and again. There's nothing wrong with using the tax code to his advantage. Additionally, you have no proof that the carryover was from 1995. It was carried forward and likely goes back to 1992 when Trump declared bankruptcy on his casino assets during an economic downturn.

As far as "losing" $1 billion. Warren Buffett "lost" almost $2 billion the other day on Wells Fargo. Does that make him a bad businessman?

[Seriously?]

It's not about serfdom or bureaucracy. It's about people making a freaking fortune while providing nothing of value to society. Your gains private, your costs are public. It's making our country weaker and more fractured.

Donald Trump isn't the only guy doing it, but he just became the poster boy. And the nerve of him, to complain about immigrants who work their asses off for virtually nothing, while he doesn't pay?? What hypocrisy....

Trump Tower is nothing of value to society?

Building other buildings that are used for people to live in or businesses to conduct trade in is not something of value to society?

Employing 20,000 workers who pay taxes on their incomes isn't something of value to society?

I don't get this argument one bit. Trump pays plenty and contributes plenty. You liberals just have your panties in a wad because he doesn't pay "enough."

To those of you that think we do not pay enough in taxes, I challenge you to send a voluntary contribution to the IRS. We are taxed enough as far as I am concerned.

[Seriously?]

I see Seriously got his talking points from Trump Tower and immediately got into work.

Sorry, I don't need talking points to discuss common sense.

Any single taxpayer that has ever used H&R Block to find as many deductions as possible is just as "guilty" as Trump is here. I can never, ever, ever malign someone for legally using the tax code to pay as little as posisble to the government.

Maybe you liberals want to pay as much tax as possible, but I for one do not. If you do, you are more than welcome to voluntarily write a check to the IRS.

But don't you understand? The people who man the government bureaucracy are the greatest people on earth. State corporatism is the way to go. These people are working for the greater good of humanity.

Individual self employed capitalists like Trump are an affront to this, saying and doing what they like. They should shovel as much of their money into the bureaucratic bohemoth as they possibly can. That way they can be reduced to their proper role of serfdom to the bureaucracy as soon as possible, just like everyone else.

Of course they are. It takes a village to raise a child and all, certainly not parents. Collectivism, yay!

[Seriously?]

THE big lesson that shoould be taken from this is Mr. "Populist friend of the working man screwed over by the system" doesn't believe this statement one iota. Quite the opposite actually.

Second is he's actually a crappy businessman.

1) I guess you've never heard of the book "The Art of the Comeback." Trump is neither the first nor the last developer to run into issues during an economic downturn.

2) Is Warren Buffett a "crappy businessman?" He lost $2 billion on Wells Fargo last week.

3) Anyone on here want to take a guess who signed the loophole Trump allegedly took advantage of into law?

[Seriously?]

Weird that, with all of their money problems, the Trump campaigning is employing people like Seriously? to regurgitate inane Trump campaign talking points on internet forums like this one.

Funny. I am still looking for that paycheck from the Trump organization.

But don't let facts get in the way of your fantasyland narrative there, Lief.

[Seriously?]

Weird that, with all of their money problems, the Trump campaigning is employing people like Seriously? to regurgitate inane Trump campaign talking points on internet forums like this one.

Funny. I am still looking for that paycheck from the Trump organization.

But don't let facts get in the way of your fantasyland narrative there, Lief.

So is everyone else he has stiffed.

Funny. Because Trump would pay me to post polls -- both positive and negative -- about his campaign, right? If I were on the payroll, I'd only be posting the ones with Trump up, not every day of a tracking poll no matter where it lies.

[Seriously?]

I see Seriously got his talking points from Trump Tower and immediately got into work.

Sorry, I don't need talking points to discuss common sense.

Any single taxpayer that has ever used H&R Block to find as many deductions as possible is just as "guilty" as Trump is here. I can never, ever, ever malign someone for legally using the tax code to pay as little as posisble to the government.

Maybe you liberals want to pay as much tax as possible, but I for one do not. If you do, you are more than welcome to voluntarily write a check to the IRS.

This is an interesting case of small reference pools for our friend Seriously. I'm sure in his ideological and socioeconomic circles, it would be seen as a major victory to not pay tax. Indeed, the idea of never having to part with a single cent is an aspirational idea, something to be emulated. Of course, if they stepped out of their safe space, they'd realise that the actual working people of America, rather than desperately wishing they could be as selfish as the Trumps of the world; simply want these elite figures to simply be less misers and pay what is fair so they can raise their children in a more egalitarian society.

In just about every social circle, it's a major victory not to pay tax. Anyone that uses H&R Block, Turbo Tax and every other preparer organization promises your "maximum refund" or your money back.

Local elections are won or lost based on keeping property taxes down.

No one wants to pay more in taxes, but if you do, ClintonianCake, I can get you the address to write a personal check to the IRS, just because you are well off enough to do so and I suggest that those in your social circle follow their principles and do the same thing.

[Seriously?]

Anyway, if you don't understand the vast majority of people are decent human beings who care about those below them on the socioeconomic ladder, and can't stand when people in the super-rich category seem to evade any obligation towards the little people, well, get bent tbh. Nobody likes paying for things. Maybe I don't like paying for groceries, and so I decide that I should shoplift all my goods from now on? No, I don't because if everybody felt that way the grocery shop would collapse.

You're still welcome to contribute to our treasury, if you'd like. I'll get you the address.

With that said, no one avoided taxes here. This was all legal. The reason the loophole likely existed was to spur a downtrodden economy and get developers developing again. The likely law in question, which did not treat forgiven loans as taxable income was passed by A DEMOCRAT House and A DEMOCRAT Senate and signed into law by a DEMOCRAT President.

Take your moral outrage to Bill Clinton, Robert "KKK" Byrd and Tom Foley. They're the ones that allowed this.

[Seriously?]

Where's the outrage, red avatars? Pay your "fair share" New York Times.

Pot... Meet Kettle.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2016/01/31/new-york-times-hypocrisy-on-corporate-taxes-reaches-record-high/#19407c657754

[Seriously?]

Arthur Ochs Sulzberger isn't running for President or pretending he's the champion of the lower classes.

You mean Carlos Slim?

[Seriously?]

Seriously needs to disclose whether he is a paid operative of Trump's campaign or otherwise be banned ASAP.

I don't get paid by Trump. If I did, I sure as hell wouldn't be posting polls on the poll board regardless of who is in the lead and by what margin. Think about that.

Thanks for the compliment though.

[Seriously?]

This thread has been a lot easier to read when Seriously is put on ignore. When you do that, half of this thread is hidden

Unfortunately too many posters are still taking the troll's bait.

That's the only real negative of this thread

You guys are funny. Equating what we call "debate" in this country with trolling. There's nothing "trolling" about articulating the other side's viewpoint.

It must be a nice cocoon that you live in, full of failed Democrat idealism and policies.

[Seriously?]

Yeah, they don't seem to really have standing to criticize anyone for not paying any taxes.

It's not even relevant. People can bitch at the NYT too, but it doesn't change what Trump did.

"What Trump did" a/k/a use a legal deduction that people have a right to use.

How unhinged you red avatars have become over this is laughable. I guarantee you if any single one of you were in his position, you would have used the same deduction. Like the New York Times has. Like Clinton hero Mark Cuban has. Like I am sure Warren Buffet has.

The New York Times and the Clinton campaign is preying on the fiscal illiteracy of the American public here. Trump did absolutely nothing wrong.

[Seriously?]

Those losses were allowed to be recognized over subsequent years for valid reasons of recapitalization. If you don't allow that kind of deductions, you may have developers not developing and building things. As a result, you get stagnation.

LOL.
You can tell Seriously is just cutting and pasting trump jargon.
He is trying really hard to sound like he knows what he is talking about, but he is fooling no one but himself.
This quote above I found most amusing : "for valid reasons of recapitalization."
What does an NOL carryover have to do with "recapitalization" ?
And these carryover deductions is a silly argument to make in where it may hinder "developers not developing and building things," and the possibility that you might get "stagnation."
What a horse-sh**t line of crap !
LMAO.

Let me try to explain to you exactly what I meant here. Simplifying things for math purposes. Let's assume the value of the write-off is $1 Billion and the effective tax rate is 40%.

Scenario A: The deduction is allowed
The developer gets to write off $1 Billion on his tax returns until he can no longer exhaust it.
The developer has $400 million more to build things.

Scenario B: The deduction is not allowed
The government gets the $400 million.
The developer has $400 million less to build things.

So what happens under that scenario? A few buildings/shopping centers/malls/housing don't get developed. Multiply this over multiple real estate businesses and your economy will stagnate.

In times of recession, the government will often change tax policy to stimulate the economy. One of the ways they do this is by creating incentives for people to build businesses, erect buildings, etc.

You can argue with me all you want over the justness of the policy. However, if there is a law in place that allows for a write-off, discrediting those that are smart enough to use said deduction is disingenuous.

Again, Trump did nothing wrong here. Every single one of you would avail yourselves of these write-offs if you were able to. And I wouldn't blame you one bit.

[Seriously?]

Yeah, they don't seem to really have standing to criticize anyone for not paying any taxes.

It's not even relevant. People can bitch at the NYT too, but it doesn't change what Trump did.

"What Trump did" a/k/a use a legal deduction that people have a right to use.

How unhinged you red avatars have become over this is laughable. I guarantee you if any single one of you were in his position, you would have used the same deduction. Like the New York Times has. Like Clinton hero Mark Cuban has. Like I am sure Warren Buffet has. Like the Clintons have.

The New York Times and the Clinton campaign is preying on the fiscal illiteracy of the American public here. Trump did absolutely nothing wrong.

Don't believe me on the Hillary Clinton claim? The source material is on pages 17 and 18 of this document.

https://m.hrc.onl/secretary/10-documents/01-health-financial-records/Clinton_2015_Form_1040_with_Signature_Page.pdf

They (the media and the Clinton campaign) are rightly taking this opportunity to damage Trump for the sake of the people, if only for a sense of moral dignity.

Americans are not fiscally illiterate to know that what Trump did was wrong. On the contrary, the fiscally intelligent know that Donald Trump committed a massive injustice against working class Americans by not paying his fair share of taxes.

Legal or not does not have a bearing, as elections are run by votes, not the rulings of judges or juries. This is made more clear by Trump's reliance on the rust belt states (especially PA and OH), which he is trying to use to build his vote total. After hearing this news, the voters with common sense will wake up to see that they are being played by this crook...but in the end, it is up to them to decide not to vote for him.

So let me get this straight. If you were in Trump's shoes, you would have passed over the deduction?

What would your stakeholders think? Your employees? Your family?

[Seriously?]

the bigger story here is that he, supposedly a good businessman, somehow managed to lose nearly a billion dollars in the year 1995, not that he took on one of the most obvious tax moves ever.

you are a stupid businessman if you don't know about business income loss carryforwards.

You do realize that he wrote a book about his fall and resulting comeback, right?

And those losses were likely from 1992 when the casino businesses went bust. Part of the reason that Clinton won in 1992 was that the economy was in bad shape.

[Seriously?]

PS: Your entire use of "stagnation" in your argument is ridiculous. I am only using it since you are, but it feels so ignorant in its application here. It might be some "big economic word" that the trump campaign has asked you to use to fool your "poorly educated" trump zombies, but it is extremely foolish and silly to think it will work in Atlas.

If my stagnation argument is so ridiculous why has stimulus been used to combat recession/depression  for generations now? Obama used it extensively in 2009.

In order to incentivize people during times of economic downturn, government will turn to accelerated depreciation and other tricks (like the bill passed in 1993 forgiving tax recognition of loans that were erased by banks) to encourage businessmen to stimulate the economy.