English translations of the Bible

[12th Doctor]

Sorry, I forgot, I had already given you James, I went backwards.  Okay, Paul clearly defeats the notion on sola fide, correct?

Then I have James telling us to be doers and not only hearers of the word, correct?

So how does one be a doer of the word?  James tells us.  Good works. 

Love and good works are connected, correct?  Because how does one show their love?

And I'm not even done yet, I just want to see if you agree with me on these points.

[12th Doctor]

Sorry, I forgot, I had already given you James, I went backwards.  Okay, Paul clearly defeats the notion on sola fide, correct?

Then I have James telling us to be doers and not only hearers of the word, correct?

So how does one be a doer of the word?  James tells us.  Good works. 

Love and good works are connected, correct?  Because how does one show their love?

And I'm not even done yet, I just want to see if you agree with me on these points.

Like I have been saying all this time, if you are truly saved by the grace of God, then you will want do thing to spread the message of God.

James is not saying anything about works with faith helps you go to heaven. He is telling us not just take in the message of God, but help spread it through out the world.

Hang on... I agree, we are saved through God's grace.  That's not the point.  That is not up for discussion.

No, this is not talking about getting saved. This is talking about a Christian should have these qualities, but it is not required to have to be saved.

First off, Dude, it says it right there.  Faith without works is dead.  Paul places Love over Faith in terms of importance.  You can't deny it. 

Those passages have NOTHING to do with spreading the "message".  Nothing at all.  Even if you can't grab that by reading them, the context of the surrounding passages has nothing to do with spreading the message.  James is addressing a Christian Jewish convert community who, at least wonder if faith alone is enough.  It's true that James goes onto talk about teaching the word, but the two thoughts show no connection. The reasons I gave you the context leading up to each in both of them was so you couldn't say that. Were either Paul or James talking about "spreading the words" per se, then they would have mentioned it somewhere in those passages, don't you think.  If you look at James the entire lead up to my primary point has to do with actions, not words.

But, I figured you wouldn't believe me, so I will prepare round 2.  Give me a moment.

[12th Doctor]

Okay, so let us turn to John 14.  This is the famous chaper that is always quoted by sola fideists to back up their claims.  Here, Jesus is talking about salvation.  I will give you the entire chapter so that you can see all the context surrounding what he is saying, once again, I will highlight the main points.

1
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.
2
In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.
4
Where (I) am going you know the way." 
5
Thomas said to him, "Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"
6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

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Now, most Protestant stop right there and say "AHA".  But what happens after that is just as important, because it puts what Jesus has said into context.

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7
If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
8
Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us."
9
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
11
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
12
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.
13
And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14
If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.
15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,
17
the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
19
In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.
20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.
21
Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
22
Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him, "Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"
23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.
24
Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.
25
"I have told you this while I am with you.
26
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.
27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
28
13 You heard me tell you, 'I am going away and I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
29
And now I have told you this before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe.
30
I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming. He has no power over me,
31
but the world must know that I love the Father and that I do just as the Father has commanded me. Get up, let us go.

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Verse 16 etc isn't important right now, it might be important later, which is why I have highlighted it.  The important parts here are 12 and 15.

Jesus says that "he who believes in me will do works".  Now Protestant logic says "well, that means that anyone who has faith in Christ will be consumed by the Spirit and do as Christ would.  But... and this is the real significance of James in this puzzle... James tells use that that does NOT logically follow.  That one can have faith without works, though it is a dead faith.

Finally, Jesus doesn't say "if you love me, you will believe in me".  He says "If you love me keep my commandments."  That's an action oreinted command.  He is telling the disciples to do things, not just have faith.

[12th Doctor]

Waits for the discussion of _____ in order to be saved.  Just to see if you two actually get to that point. 

I am getting there.  The Grace of God is what "saves".  But the notion that all you need is faith is bunk.

[12th Doctor]

Unless you are talking about "once saved always saved" in which case I am working up to that.

[12th Doctor]

Waits for the discussion of _____ in order to be saved.  Just to see if you two actually get to that point. 

I am getting there.  The Grace of God is what "saves".  But the notion that all you need is faith is bunk.

I know.  I just want to see if you actually cover a key point of salvation.  Don't want to say what it is (yet) though. 

I see.  Well, I am waiting for Josh to either agree or disagree with me.  I have a feeling such things won't be worthcoming though.  Josh is probably doing the same thing now that most people do when their belief system is challenged.

"WHAT TRICKERY IS THIS!?  LISTEN NOT TO THIS MAN!"

[12th Doctor]

If I may ask, what is your opinion of Matthew 25:31-46?  I've always found it interesting, as it seems to me like the most direct statement I can think of where Jesus says that faith is not enough, but perhaps, as usual, there's something I don't "get".

That answers it, more or less.  I was getting to that part though.

[12th Doctor]

Well, just to keep things moving, I am going to assume that Josh believes the Bible says what it says that if we love Jesus, we will keep his commandments, and I will just go ahead.  Now, lets look at what some of those direct commandments are, shall we?  And I will even give them to you in KJV.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

This is from the "don't hide your light under a bushel part".  Don't hide your goodworks, do them for God.
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Ye have heard that it hath been said," An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth": But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
                      (Matthew 5:38-39)

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Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)

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And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Matthew 6:5-7)

In otherwords, don't show off to others how pius you are.
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wink and nod to Gabu


Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.  (Matthew 25:34-36)

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Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:10)

Not only does this prove this point, but also goes against the Protestant belief that Gaurdian Angels are herecy.

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Here is a good one for the fundies to remember that Catholics have already come to terms with

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw on a man casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. (Mark 9:38-40)

In otherwords, just because they are not in your group doesn't mean they aren't Christians.

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After telling the tale of the Good Samaritan

Then Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. (Luke 10:37)

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And to wrap it all up:

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

The fact that Jesus specifically says "This is my commandment" seems to indicate this is the most important of them all.

[12th Doctor]

Now, you will note in each of these that Jesus is commanding an action of his disciples.  There are many more, but I picked out these ones, just because.

If you love Jesus, you will do these things.

Its a stretch, but Paul tells us love is more improtant than Faith, right?  So... wouldn't you rather love Jesus and do good things for him, as he commanded you to?

[12th Doctor]

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

...

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)

Just a random question... this probably has to do with the English in the KJV, but how are these two not mutually contradictory?

Context... the first one is talking about setting a good example.  The Second is talking about giving yourself a big public pat on the back.

[12th Doctor]

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

...

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)

Just a random question... this probably has to do with the English in the KJV, but how are these two not mutually contradictory?

Context... the first one is talking about setting a good example.  The Second is talking about giving yourself a big public pat on the back.

Yeah, kinda hard to think Matthew would completely contradict himself in just 30 or so verses

[12th Doctor]

So, supersoulty you are trying to say if you don't do works for God then you can't go to even?

I am not "trying" to say anything.  I am saying that it is by our treatment of others, our love for one another and not earthly faith, per se, by which we will ultimately be judged.

 
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Matthew 7:21

To say that I am "trying" to say anythign implies some sorta ambiguity in my statements, of which there is none.

[12th Doctor]

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.



If you read the whole thing, it is talking about the "friut" of someones life. How some people think they are saved because they have done good thing and lived a good life.
Again I say unto you, this whole chapter is talking about the friut of someones life.

You are attemping to use the "once saved always saved" idea to attack what I have just said.  It doesn't apply.  What Christ is saying is that we cannot think that, just because we do great thing (such as build a Church) that means we are going to go to Heaven.  I agree with oyu there,  You have to view it in temrs of first Corinthians, in that your acts must be legit acts of love, not just attempts to buy of God's judgment.

What if I could prove to you that "once saved always saved" is not correct?

[12th Doctor]

My friends, I have been delayed by my travels, but I assure you, I will advance my point, even if Josh seems to have dropped out of the debate.