is homeschooling child abuse?

[DC Al Fine]

I know it's a hard notion to comprehend for American liberals, but there are perfectly legitimate reasons why parents would want to homeschool their children, especially considering what an awful job the education system does at actually providing an education. Of course it should be tightly overseen by the State to avoid abuse, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a bad thing.

Who's a liberal? You're just as much as a liberal as I am, and you're complaining about the "education system" yet oppose school vouchers. I'd much rather kids go to affordable private schools that work than the inefficient homeschooling system that a lot of us can't afford.

I'd dispute being a "liberal" (I used to think the label was worth reclaiming by the left, but not anymore), but whatever.

I think there is a way to do school vouchers right in a way that actually benefits low-income families, but I hope you will agree that it's not the DeVos way.

What would that mean specifically?

For all the conservative talk about choice in healthcare, education seems more ripe for disruption, so I'm curious on what a non-conservative version of vouchers would look like.

Gotta love those liberals. "You can be whatever you want and no one should dictate your life choices... but if you're a housewife that means you're a reactionary gender traitor brainwashed by patriarchy, and if you homeschool your children that means you're an abusive parent."

These are the days I actually feel like I have more in common with Cathcon and RFayette.

My wife complains about this a lot vis a vis feminism: "they are the sort of people who think women can only find meaning in acting like boorish men"

[DC Al Fine]

I know it's a hard notion to comprehend for American liberals, but there are perfectly legitimate reasons why parents would want to homeschool their children, especially considering what an awful job the education system does at actually providing an education. Of course it should be tightly overseen by the State to avoid abuse, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a bad thing.

Who's a liberal? You're just as much as a liberal as I am, and you're complaining about the "education system" yet oppose school vouchers. I'd much rather kids go to affordable private schools that work than the inefficient homeschooling system that a lot of us can't afford.

It's actually not that unaffordable if you have a lot of kids. I have a friend who has four children and makes ~$50k US/year. Between payroll taxes, benefit clawbacks, and lost tax credits, his wife faces a marginal tax rate of over 60% should she go back to work, and that is before the cost of childcare is considered. At that point homeschooling is only marginally more expensive than public school.

[DC Al Fine]

No, because child abuse should not be trivialised for cheap point scoring. But homeschooling is undeniably a bad idea from a pedagogical perspective.

Is it a bad idea as it is currently practiced though? Homeschoolers tend to do quite well academically. Obviously a lot of this is due to self-selection, but have there been any studies indicating that the homeschooled children of driven parents do significantly worse than the publicly schooled kids of driven parents? The biggest problem with homeschooling in my opinion is that it isn't scaleable, not academics or socialization. If you have money or are hardcore involved in your child's education it works fine, but most people can't spare the time or money.

[DC Al Fine]

What would that mean specifically?

For all the conservative talk about choice in healthcare, education seems more ripe for disruption, so I'm curious on what a non-conservative version of vouchers would look like.

For one thing, there ought to be some degree of means-testing for school vouchers - nothing too narrow, since draconian means-testing tends to have a regressive impact, but enough to prevent the hyperprivileged from attending their elite schools at the State's expense. In addition, the schools that qualify for State subsidies ought to meet a series of stringent criteria, both in terms of curriculum (they ought to provide an education at least on par with the public standards, and not try to indoctrinate children into this and that totalizing worldview) and in terms of the profit motive (ideally, there shouldn't be any, but America being what it is I think allowing a little bit might be the only way to get the system working).

Could you clarify your definitions of "stringent criteria" and "totalizing worldview"?

I think we're more or less in agreement, but those two phrases are sort of like the term "hate group". Most people like the idea of restricting them but definitions vary wildly and could be abused by a malevolent government.

Gotta love those liberals. "You can be whatever you want and no one should dictate your life choices... but if you're a housewife that means you're a reactionary gender traitor brainwashed by patriarchy, and if you homeschool your children that means you're an abusive parent."

These are the days I actually feel like I have more in common with Cathcon and RFayette.

     My mom was active as a second-wave feminist back in the 1960s and 1970s, and for her the ideas of having control over your own life and the freedom to choose as you like are critically important. Women's independence is important to me, but I am also concerned by the trends that you observe here. It's almost as if being "equal" is more important for some people than being "free" is. This article seems relevant...and utterly terrifying.

How would that even work? Would they have to drag the most obstinate women off to prison if fines don't work?

[DC Al Fine]

I'd dispute the implication that the socialization one receives in a middle school or high school environment is always positive.

Indeed. This citation is almost always anecdotal, and if we are going by anecdote, the homeschooled kids I know are much better at communicating with adults even if some of them have a somewhat harder time talking to other middle schoolers.