Leelah Alcorn, transgender girl, kills self due to bigoted parents

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

http://www.inquisitr.com/1715736/transgender-teen-leelah-acorn-kills-himself-by-walking-in-front-of-semi-truck-blames-christian-parents-in-viral-suicide-note/

Shame the title of that article misgenders her despite the rest of the article calling her by the correct pronouns. This is tragic.

"Fix society. Please. Goodbye, Leelah Josh Alcorn."

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

This story really upset me very much. If you aren't ready to love and accept your child unconditionally, then you aren't ready to have a child.
Now, I'm not going to pretend that I know the first thing about what it is like to be a transgender person. In an ideal society, the number of transgender people that exist would be much more limited because the only people who would want to change genders would be those who want to change for biological reasons. In our society, though, the main reason for changing genders seems to be that people believe that their biological sex at birth does not match up with their gender identity. Gender is a human construct. It is a sad reflection on our society that we force people to change genders because they cannot fit into the preassigned characteristics that are expected of them from birth. A woman can be assertive and sporty and a man can sensitive and wear makeup. My point is, we don't need gender identities at all, whether transgender or cisgender. However, we were born into a society that has forced it upon us, and there are thankfully many people trying to fight it. Even so, many people continue to support the archaic traditions of masculinity and femininity. Many of these people are the same ones who refuse to accept transgender people into society, which is ironic considering that the transgender community is just trying adhere to the societal norms of these people.
As I said, the ultimate goal is to create a "gender-less" but not "sex-less" society where people do not feel obliged to change themselves to fit other people's predefined boundaries. In the meantime, we must accept transgender individuals for who they are, because they know better than anyone else, including me, what is best for them.

But gender isn't a social construct - that's why this happened. Nobody constructed Leelah to be a girl, she was a girl on the inside; they tried to construct her to be a boy and it didn't work out. The fact that transgender people exist means that gender is innate. I don't know how, I don't know why, I'm not a biologist or a psychologist or any of those sorts of things, but I do know that it's not a matter of whether we "need" gender identities, it's a matter of what to do with them.

The reason Leelah killed herself wasn't because she was being "forced to change genders", it was because she was not allowed to change genders (or rather sexes - transgender people change the sex to match the gender, not the other way around).

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Yeah, unless you're going to suggest that transgenderism is a mental condition, transgender individuals are basically proof that gender roles are rooted in biology to some extent. That's why radical feminists typically hate trans people.

I wouldn't say "typically" (for indeed I'm not even sure what a radical feminist is by your definition), but yes, trans-exclusionary radical feminism is a thing and should be shot.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

This story really upset me very much. If you aren't ready to love and accept your child unconditionally, then you aren't ready to have a child.
Now, I'm not going to pretend that I know the first thing about what it is like to be a transgender person. In an ideal society, the number of transgender people that exist would be much more limited because the only people who would want to change genders would be those who want to change for biological reasons. In our society, though, the main reason for changing genders seems to be that people believe that their biological sex at birth does not match up with their gender identity. Gender is a human construct. It is a sad reflection on our society that we force people to change genders because they cannot fit into the preassigned characteristics that are expected of them from birth. A woman can be assertive and sporty and a man can sensitive and wear makeup. My point is, we don't need gender identities at all, whether transgender or cisgender. However, we were born into a society that has forced it upon us, and there are thankfully many people trying to fight it. Even so, many people continue to support the archaic traditions of masculinity and femininity. Many of these people are the same ones who refuse to accept transgender people into society, which is ironic considering that the transgender community is just trying adhere to the societal norms of these people.
As I said, the ultimate goal is to create a "gender-less" but not "sex-less" society where people do not feel obliged to change themselves to fit other people's predefined boundaries. In the meantime, we must accept transgender individuals for who they are, because they know better than anyone else, including me, what is best for them.

But gender isn't a social construct - that's why this happened. Nobody constructed Leelah to be a girl, she was a girl on the inside; they tried to construct her to be a boy and it didn't work out. The fact that transgender people exist means that gender is innate. I don't know how, I don't know why, I'm not a biologist or a psychologist or any of those sorts of things, but I do know that it's not a matter of whether we "need" gender identities, it's a matter of what to do with them.

The reason Leelah killed herself wasn't because she was being "forced to change genders", it was because she was not allowed to change genders (or rather sexes - transgender people change the sex to match the gender, not the other way around).

Gender is not an innate biological characteristic but is indeed a social construct. Look at how gender norms have varied so widely across time and place. Blue was once the color for girls, associated with the Virgin Mary, while pink was the color for boys, considered a bold color.

Were the social construct of gender to be abolished there would be no gender dysphoria and transgenderism because each human being would be free to express themselves as individuals without any "male" or "female" assignments to the way they act or dress or speak.

Transsexuality would still exist, but not transgenderism, were gender to be deconstructed (which would require undoing thousands of years of artificial social construction.)

Gender roles are a social construct, but gender isn't. There are feminine transmen and masculine transwomen - hell, I know one of each! Some people are women, some people are men, some people are somewhere in between, and some people are way out off in the distance. I'm not sure what sort of distinction you're making between transsexuality and transgenderism. Leelah didn't kill herself because she wanted to wear dresses or whatever, she killed herself because she was a woman.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

This story is very sad, but the reporting is problematic.

I fear that giving someone who committed suicide this kind of platform and retroactive affirmation is going to encourage more suicide.

Statements made by a teenager who did something very stupid (Can we all agree that suicide is dumb in this case?) should be taken with a grain of salt.

She was ing bullied to death by her vile family because of their bigotry. She was forced to live as someone who she did not identify as. She was deliberately isolated from her friends and endured conversion therapy. Her life was made hell.

It's not 'retroactive affirmation' to say that she was driven to the breaking point by the ultra-transphobic attitudes held by her parents--it is a mere statement of fact. Nearly half of all trans* people have attempted to commit suicide. And simply put, her voices and the voices of people in similar situations need be given a gigantic platform--people need to be screaming for justice right now!

So maybe think before you post next time, asshole.

There are no 'facts' in this case - other than the suicide of this person obviously. Alcorn's account of the events leading up to his decision to commit suicide differs quite significantly from that given by his mother. As much as I am loathe to speak ill of the dead, why should she be believed? Why is her account neccessarily correct. People commit suicide for many reasons (indeed, she alluded to other reasons besides the supposed lack of support that she received from her parents), and occasionally embellish those reasons. From what I've read, this was obviously a highly troubled and conflicted person, and I don't see it as being beyond the bounds of probability that, having taken a dislike to her parents (as many children are wont to do, often for less than serious reasons), she decided that part of her legacy would be to blacken their names and deliver them up for public humiliation.

Of course, she could have been telling 'the truth'. But that's something we'll never know, and thus I find it a little premature and silly to pass moral judgement on her parents when we can never even be sure that she was telling the truth.

There is a time and a place for your filth and this is not it. Occam's razor isn't that hard to grasp.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Let's remember that this person was mentally ill (suicidal depression) so their point of view might not be 100% objectively trustworthy. We don't know what the parent/child relationship was like.

Obviously Leelah didn't feel loved enough, and obviously the parents didn't approve of their child being trans, but that doesn't mean the parents bullied or mistreated her.

Also, we shouldn't make a martyr over a person committing suicide. That would only encourage more confused and depressed people into suicide.

The parents obviously don't care about their daughter enough to accept who she was. That's mistreatment right there. Leelah wasn't "confused". She was fed up with her parents and society at large treating trasngender people like sh**t.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

You don't think that conversion therapy is abuse?

Plus, it doesn't matter where she might have moved throughout her life, this was HER truth now. Even if she had exaggerated her parent's response, it was still clear that they weren't treating her properly. And it was their religiosity that meant they didn't help in the right way. The fact that she isn't going to be treated in death as we wanted to be in life, is kind of the final insult.

I also note that some people here aren't questioning the parent's version of events. Considering the public response...

How do we know it was conversion therapy? Leelah said in her suicide note that her parents only brought her to therapists that seemed to agree with her parents and have Christian leanings. That's no proof of attempted conversion therapy. Suicide notes are usually very emotional and subjective. I don't doubt that's what Leelah believed, but was it true?

How were they not treating her properly? Is it now mandated that everyone needs to support transgenderism entirely?

Yes, the parents might not be telling the truth either. But I'm saying let's not go on a witch hunt and condemn them without an investigation.

They weren't treating her properly because they were denying her the basic right to be the woman she was. And yes, it is.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

You don't think that conversion therapy is abuse?

Plus, it doesn't matter where she might have moved throughout her life, this was HER truth now. Even if she had exaggerated her parent's response, it was still clear that they weren't treating her properly. And it was their religiosity that meant they didn't help in the right way. The fact that she isn't going to be treated in death as we wanted to be in life, is kind of the final insult.

I also note that some people here aren't questioning the parent's version of events. Considering the public response...

How do we know it was conversion therapy? Leelah said in her suicide note that her parents only brought her to therapists that seemed to agree with her parents and have Christian leanings. That's no proof of attempted conversion therapy. Suicide notes are usually very emotional and subjective. I don't doubt that's what Leelah believed, but was it true?

How were they not treating her properly? Is it now mandated that everyone needs to support transgenderism entirely?

Yes, the parents might not be telling the truth either. But I'm saying let's not go on a witch hunt and condemn them without an investigation.

They weren't treating her properly because they were denying her the basic right to be the woman she was. And yes, it is.

That is a radical, minority position.

It's one thing to support transgenderism. It's another to say all who have any difficulties with it are violating human rights.

People don't violate human rights by disagreeing with something, even if it's disagreeing with a human right. You are saying you'd be for violating their human rights, by saying they have no right to form their own opinion or express it to anyone.

People violate human rights when they force their children to be something they're not and drive them to suicide.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Jumping in front of a car or truck and directly putting a person at fault for a death is a pretty selfish act.

The driver isn't being charged with anything. The people at fault are Leelah's parents.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Jumping in front of a car or truck and directly putting a person at fault for a death is a pretty selfish act.

The driver isn't being charged with anything. The people at fault are Leelah's parents.

He knows that HE killed him. That poor driver had to see the mangled body of that kid knowing that HE ran him over. No fault of the drivers but that doesn't mean that they won't be scarred for life or have constant nightmares about it.

If I forced you to kill one person, what would you think of me, regardless of my motivations?

Her*

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I'm not getting into a stupid debate over pronouns.

This "stupid debate" was what killed Leelah. If you refuse to acknowledge who she is, that makes you just as bad as her parents.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

The religious context of this is not 100% clear to me. Is this link between fundis and being against transsexuals as simple as "God ascribed a gender to him/her, it is sinful to change it?" Or is there more to it? (fear of their "son" turning gay by having a relationship to a guy?).

No on answered this, so I will repost.

I can't really get inside the parents' minds here, but Leelah wrote "they wanted me to be their straight Christian boy", so presumably it's both. Don't take my word for it, though.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Given that this thread is mainly dedicated to chastising parents who have recently lost their child in an especially unpleasant way for their moral failures, it might not be the most appropriate place for a tasteful discussion of the ethics of suicide.

Their moral failures which directly contributed to their child's death.

I agree that Atlas in general isn't an appropriate place for a tasteful discussion of the ethics of suicide.

Well, you can't really know what was going on there, do you? This teenager has left a note where she blames her parents, but I wouldn't trust someone on the verge of suicide to be able to give a levelheaded assessment of his or her situation. And this especially goes for deeply disturbed teenagers, I'd imagine. There was this guy a couple of years above me in high-school who killed himself in a fit of rage because his parents had made him drop out of the boy scouts, which as such things go, is rather a bad reason to do away with yourself. I am fairly confident that he himself wouldn't have wanted his act to stand as an enduring condemnation of his parents. When you're in such an extreme of feeling, reason does seem to have a tendency to give way to a desire to hurt and maim at all costs. When I think of some of the things I have said or thought about people in the throes of much less emotional perturbation,...

At any rate, the message of this sort of news story always risk being: 'Want to teach your insensitive parents a lesson? Well, here's something that'll really show them.', which is a downright murderous message for the media to be spouting.

I'd say the parents' continued refusal on acknowledging who their daughter was backs up her claims.