Transgender woman charged with indecent exposure over Ohio YMCA incident

[ingemann]

It seems good that such a case will end up in the courts, so a precedence will be set whichever way it will end up. I really hope for the Democrats that this woman will end up losing.

[ingemann]

It seems good that such a case will end up in the courts, so a precedence will be set whichever way it will end up. I really hope for the Democrats that this woman will end up losing.

I for one, am tired of this framing. First all, I think trying to make this about electoral politics, or some extremely speculative high-court decision is sort of ridiculous. If a crime was committed, hopefully it will be prosecuted with rigor, but I doubt we will hear very much more from this in the press. Sex crimes happen across the country all of the time it's very horrible. Don't know why this one specifically is here on USGD.

But I will say something on the issue of Democrats, and elections, because it was brought up. This notion that Trans Rights is some massive electoral albatross is not sustained by reality. In 2016, the NCGOP tied their fates to an absurd, widely-ridiculed Trans Bathroom Bill, and Roy Cooper was elected on a program of repealing that law. In 2022, Republicans just about everywhere ran on demonizing Trans Americans and railing about "gender ideology" in the schools, and in their inspired wisdom decided to make "the integrity of women's sports" a big campaign issue. In 2022, Republicans went down to defeat in a cataclysmic fashion. Herschel Walker ran an ad during the runoff period in Georgia with a female athlete (who wasn't even from Georgia) complaining about how her win in swimming was stolen or whatever. It was a totally pathetic ad in an aimless, doomed campaign, and he wasn't the only one. Walker, Tudor Dixon, Doug Mastriano, and others who tried to make Trans Rights a campaign issue were defeated by Democrats who didn't hedge on the issue, and made clear they supported basic rights and dignity for all their constituents. I suspect that if Republicans try to make Trans Rights a campaign issue again, they will once again be perceived as out-of-touch weirdos by the moderate middle, most of whom are perfectly content to live and let live.

I agree, it’s not necessary an albatross… but only as long as Democrats don’t make it an albatross. This woman was from we can read here physically very much still a man, if the courts decides that she have a right to use the same locker room as cis-women, they will have de facto abolished gendered locker rooms, which I suspect will result in a backlash. The failure of the mainstream Republican candidates to start a trans-panic in 2016 was very much connected to no one really pushing a strong pro-transgender narrative at the time. The discussion at the time was also about restrooms not locker rooms, and honestly the only reason we have separate restrooms is because of urinals, there’s no reason why men and women couldn’t use the same restrooms, locker rooms on the other hand are closely connected to being naked and therefore you will get a much stronger reaction to transwomen getting access to it.

[ingemann]

It seems good that such a case will end up in the courts, so a precedence will be set whichever way it will end up. I really hope for the Democrats that this woman will end up losing.

I for one, am tired of this framing. First all, I think trying to make this about electoral politics, or some extremely speculative high-court decision is sort of ridiculous. If a crime was committed, hopefully it will be prosecuted with rigor, but I doubt we will hear very much more from this in the press. Sex crimes happen across the country all of the time it's very horrible. Don't know why this one specifically is here on USGD.

But I will say something on the issue of Democrats, and elections, because it was brought up. This notion that Trans Rights is some massive electoral albatross is not sustained by reality. In 2016, the NCGOP tied their fates to an absurd, widely-ridiculed Trans Bathroom Bill, and Roy Cooper was elected on a program of repealing that law. In 2022, Republicans just about everywhere ran on demonizing Trans Americans and railing about "gender ideology" in the schools, and in their inspired wisdom decided to make "the integrity of women's sports" a big campaign issue. In 2022, Republicans went down to defeat in a cataclysmic fashion. Herschel Walker ran an ad during the runoff period in Georgia with a female athlete (who wasn't even from Georgia) complaining about how her win in swimming was stolen or whatever. It was a totally pathetic ad in an aimless, doomed campaign, and he wasn't the only one. Walker, Tudor Dixon, Doug Mastriano, and others who tried to make Trans Rights a campaign issue were defeated by Democrats who didn't hedge on the issue, and made clear they supported basic rights and dignity for all their constituents. I suspect that if Republicans try to make Trans Rights a campaign issue again, they will once again be perceived as out-of-touch weirdos by the moderate middle, most of whom are perfectly content to live and let live.

I agree, it’s not necessary an albatross… but only as long as Democrats don’t make it an albatross. This woman was from we can read here physically very much still a man, if the courts decides that she have a right to use the same locker room as cis-women, they will have de facto abolished gendered locker rooms, which I suspect will result in a backlash. The failure of the mainstream Republican candidates to start a trans-panic in 2016 was very much connected to no one really pushing a strong pro-transgender narrative at the time. The discussion at the time was also about restrooms not locker rooms, and honestly the only reason we have separate restrooms is because of urinals, there’s no reason why men and women couldn’t use the same restrooms, locker rooms on the other hand are closely connected to being naked and therefore you will get a much stronger reaction to transwomen getting access to it.

What about the fact that homosexual men and women exist? Doesn't that put a giant hole in the argument that we have gendered locker rooms to protect the 'innocence' of the genders or whatever? I have absolutely zero attraction to the female body, so really you'd think it would be smarter to put gay men in the womens locker room following that logic... Of course like 98% of people I'm also not a creep and literally just wish to use a locker room to change and leave (I hate them any way and usually find somewhere private to change instead).

Gendered locker rooms doesn’t exist for the sake of men at least not in a Western context, they exist so that women can have a safe space from men, when they’re naked. You’re welcome to think they’re silly geese, but women clearly do not want to share locker room with men or people who visually looks like men, and I think we should respect that.

As for gay men in men’s locker rooms, I have never cared about it.

[ingemann]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

If they’re not, those TERFs can get some death and rape threats until they learn to keep their mouths shut. /s

[ingemann]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

Do you really not see any potential issues with forcing a trans woman to share a locker room with a bunch of cis men?

Well if it’s not a problem making people with male anatomy share locker room with cis women, why is it a problem to make trans women share locker room with people with male anatomy?

[ingemann]

It is absolutely fascinating to me that the leftwing position on this forum (and probably the mainstream establishment leftwing position in general pretty soon) is that women should just get over it and accept that they'll occasionally have to change in the presence of naked people with penises when they're in the locker room and if they don't like that then they're a bigot who probably also want lesbians to be kicked out of women's locker rooms. I know this forum is 99% men but I wonder if women on the left would be equally supportive of such a bold take.

Unless you're advocating to ban communal changing rooms entirely there is no solution that cleanly divides people into "men's" and "women's" changing rooms. Do the opposite and you'll have jacked dudes with vaginas in the women's changing room.

It's actually really simple and easy: People with male anatomy shouldn't use the female changing room. It doesn't really matter much who uses the men's changing room, honestly, so that's not a big deal.

Do you really not see any potential issues with forcing a trans woman to share a locker room with a bunch of cis men?

Well if it’s not a problem making people with male anatomy share locker room with cis women, why is it a problem to make trans women share locker room with people with male anatomy?

Because those trans women will be at risk of being sexually assaulted if they are forced to be in the men’s changing room.

So trans women risk being sexually assaulted if they share locker room with someone with male anatomy but cis women don’t?

[ingemann]

So trans women risk being sexually assaulted if they share locker room with someone with male anatomy but cis women don’t?

Why are you bozos so focused on the anatomy? Trans women are 4x as likely to be victims of sexual assault than a cis person is.

If your goal is “as few instances of sexual assault in locker rooms as possible”, then you should support letting trans women in women’s locker rooms.

Because if non-transient trans women are not a threat to cis women, then men aren’t a threat to trans or cis women either.

Do I really think trans women should be forced to use male locker room not really, I think that every place with locker rooms should have a private locker room for handicapped people, which can also be use by non-handicapped exceptions like trans women or people who really don’t like to be naked with other people, while I understand that this is humiliating, I think this is the best solution.

[ingemann]

Well and also to be frank like how would a strict enforcement of any "no trans allowed" locker room policies even work?  Not to be a jackass here but there are many ciswomen who look like f***ing men and there are many pre-op transwomen who you could never tell have a penis.  And yeah in this case obviously it was a transgender woman naked out in the locker room but what if she went to a nearby stall to change and then quickly walked out?  Like unless one of these hallway monitors got freaking lucky and just happened to catch a naked woman with a penis there's like almost no way that such a policy could be enforced practically!

If no one discover a trans person is a trans person, who in their right mind cares? The problem here is that the person this case started with was very visually anatomical male and decide to put her genital into everyone's sight. If this person had looked like a woman and had gone to a stall to change, there would be no case at all, and everyone would be happy.

The problem here is that a lot of people pretend that trans woman is just a woman who happens to have a penis, and outside that no one can see the difference, and yes there're trans woman who looks like that. But...


Lia Thomas

There's also some who are big and very visually born male.

...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

Trans woman Ibi-Pippi (performance artist)

[ingemann]

4. If a cisgender man were to disguise himself as a transgender woman (unlikely as that may be), there are methods to find someone acting in bad faith and the law can deal with them accordingly.

Why would this be unlikely?   If one goes by self-ID and trusting people are whatever they say
are, there is no method to find someone acting in bad faith.

The vast majority of cisgender men aren’t sexual predators. Not to mention that men can already crossdress and pretend to be *cisgender* women in order to get into a woman’s locker room. We have no evidence of such an epidemic happening in the past, so why would one happen now?

This.  Times a thousand.

I heavily resent the notion that because I have a penis I'm apt to rape somebody.  Which makes me sympathetic to the plight of these transwomen.  Yes, sexual assault is a serious concern.  It can happen anywhere.  But I really don't see how trying to strictly define who is and isn't a man or a woman is the proper way to do it, which is basically what these anti-trans efforts are doing.  This is the very basis of prejudicial thought, to assume wrongdoing and ill intent based on a person's appearance and background before they even have a chance to give just cause to give suspicion.

Repeat after me: if you suspect a crime is going on just dial 9/11.

The problem is that the argument people use in this thread for trans women to use women's locker rooms are that people with penises are dangerous for trans women.

I have also at no point mentioned a risk of sexual assault and neither do I think anyone else have, I get why people have read it into the discussion, but for me it has always been a question about women's right to safe spaces. I also think that trans women have a right to safe spaces, but i don't think that it should come at the expense of cis women's right to the same.

The fact that the trans women in the article was described to behave in a very obnoxious masculine manner. In that she had her back to locker, so that everyone could see her genitals, which is a way some men behave in men's locker rooms too and is incredibly obnoxious*. In this case it also makes me question whether the person is transgender and not just someone who wanted to expose himself in public. 

*I had a co-worker who behaved in that manner and when asked to stop by a younger Muslim co-worker to stop, he was in the younger man's face.

[ingemann]

Lia Thomas
There's also some who are big and very visually born male.
...and then's people's who don't even pretend.

I apologize for the double post, but you do realize that cisgender woman can also be quite tall or masculine in their appearance right? Simple statistics would indicate that the number of tall cis women is many more than the number of tall trans women (even if, proportionally, trans women are taller than cis women).

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

[ingemann]

The Venn diagram between men and women barely touches each other, so pretending that everyone can't see that a person like Lia Thomas who was in the start of his treatment is born male is ridiculous.

You can certainly tell that Lia Thomas was born male (in part because it is a matter of public record now), but there are cisgender woman who look quite similar to Thomas and definitely those who look similarly masculine. That’s my point.

No there's not at least not in any significant amount, I come from the region with the tallest women in the world, I have never seen a single woman as masculine looking as Lia Thomas. Maybe you can find the three women, who look like Lia Thomas in the world, but in such a case they suffer from a medical condition, and I'm 100% sure that not a single cis woman looks like Lia Thomas naked.  

[ingemann]

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a dick pic from an evil cishet man it's an "act of violence" and "traumatic".

If a woman sees an unexpected penis in the form of a no-op transwoman in a locker room then she's just a prude and bigot if she doesn't like it.

The difference, of course, is that when someone sends an unsolicited dick pic to someone, it's inherently sexual and non-consensual because it's unsolicited. Being naked in a locker room is usually more acceptable. Also, I don't know how transwomen usually behave in locker rooms, but I can't imagine many of them walk around intentionally flaunting their penis. If they do, then that's a crime that a cis male would also face if he did that in a men's locker room. But I've been in locker rooms with plenty of cis men who do not flaunt their penises.

You're equating a crime to a person just existing. They aren't the same.

From the description in the article this woman, stood with her back to the locker so that her junk could be seen by the entire locker room.

[ingemann]

At some point I must admit I began to wonder how the woman in question looked, I must admit my own inner picture of the person have never been very flattering (I imagine them as some big masculine looking person) and maybe I would see this person differently if it was some small feminine looking person. We should always try to look past our own preconceived opinion. So, I decided to look her up, well I was wrong through in a different manner, and it did not change my views in the end.

The first of the two pictures is a older one, I couldn't find a date for the second one.