Argentina General Discussion: Shock Therapy

[Peeperkorn]

Note: converting to most forms of Judaism (example: not Reformist) is a long process.  So he probably abandons it once Israel is out of the news. But interesting nonetheless.

I think that he has been practicing/studying it for many years.

[Peeperkorn]

I just find it odd that this guy is the first far right populist type that wants to kiss up to the US. Most of these types tend to say like US when Trump was in charge but Joaquin Phoenix here wants good relations with Biden too

Yeah, it's also kind of odd he reversed planned membership in BRICS and is pro-Ukraine.

Why? Center-right and right politics in Latin America have always been pro-western world. Latin America has to deal with this eternal identity crisis between being part of the west or our own thing and that discussion usually correlates to the right-left axis, especially in the most "European" regions like the Southern Cone.

And I wouldn't define Milei as a populist. Not at all.

[Peeperkorn]

Brazil has many more parties and large majority of them have no ideology anyway, so they simply tend to always be pro-government AS LONG AS the government is willing to give them power - which in turns gives them reelection.

And a way of conceding this power is by giving these people ministries. So in Brazil you need to have ministries to give to your political base so that they’re happy enough (so they don’t turn on you) and that you have people you trust in + ministries for ally parties that supported you + ministries for NON-ALLY centrão parties that did not support you but will vote with you if you give them favors.

Bolsonaro initially reduced to 18 in his term but inevitably had to add ministries as time passed in order to have some room for everyone, so he ended up with 23 lmao.

Since you’re skeptical, here’s the list of 38 in wikipedia: https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minist%C3%A9rios_do_Brasil

As you can see there are some ministries that are quite specific like:

- Women Ministry
- Racial Equality Ministry
- Sports Ministry
- Cities Ministry
- Fishing and Aquaculture Ministry
- Tourism Ministry
- Social Security Ministry
- Native People Ministry

Etc

And you support this?

[Peeperkorn]

Orban and Zelensky together at yesterday's inauguration:

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1733967086743912788?s=20

https://twitter.com/DanielDiMartino/status/1733956673662853594?s=20

[Peeperkorn]

https://twitter.com/ukigoni/status/1733905677146365985?s=20

[Peeperkorn]

Looks like I named the thread well:

https://twitter.com/DanielDiMartino/status/1734755187661668593

Chances of this going through?

It will be hard and there's going to be a lot of protests but probably the best moment to do it with the landslide victory still fresh in everybody's minds.

[Peeperkorn]

If more people truly knew their nation origins, besides their own too, they would realize we’re all closer as nations to the Global South, not just on an economic level. And that includes Argentina/Uruguay as well.

What percentage of non-European DNA should I have to start identifying myself as a globalsoutherner instead of a westerner?

[Peeperkorn]

If more people truly knew their nation origins, besides their own too, they would realize we’re all closer as nations to the Global South, not just on an economic level. And that includes Argentina/Uruguay as well.

What percentage of non-European DNA should I have to start identifying myself as a globalsoutherner instead of a westerner?

And regardless of individual DNA, you were brought up in a culture where your nation customs were shaped and influenced BECAUSE of this diversified influence.

Language? Western.
Religion? Western, including an atheist/agnostic position.
System of Government? Western.
Legal system? Western.
Art, philosophy, literature? Western.
Values concerning gender or sexuality? Western.
Dress code? Western.
Sense of humor? Western.
Cuisine? 99% Western (exception: mate).
Folk music? Western, with some African elements in Montevideo.
Social behavior/expectations? Exactly the same you will find in Mediterranean Europe.

Etc.

And the same could be said about 75% or 80% of Latin American population.

[Peeperkorn]

No one questions how Western influences shaped Latin America at all. However, I think you somewhat underplay Indigenous influence in Uruguay and LARGELY underestimates how Indigenous and African influences shaped Latin America at large in literally all these specific you mention. I definitely wouldn’t categorize Brazil as a “western” country in literally any of them, outside maybe Language?

I would agree if you lived in a Maya village on Lake Atitlan or in a Brazilian quilombo but that's probably not the case. Western Culture as a concept isn't as narrow as you think.

[Peeperkorn]

"The United States doesn't have a cohesive national identity" lol

Our national identity is being American. It's called civic nationalism.

We simply encourage people to retain their traditional customs and practices. When I was little, I lived in a precinct where the Asian, Latino, and Black populations were all over 15%. My house was across from a Chinese-language church and down the street from a Mormon temple.

The vast majority of Americans think that any person, regardless of race, religion, or gender, can become an American. There are Chinese-Americans, Nigerian-Americans, Australian-Americans, Brazilian-Americans, and even Norwegian-Israeli-Americans.

Yeah, so? I don’t see how we are supposed to be disagreeing here, you are just confirming everything I said. US doesn’t have a cohesive culture that unifies its people, therefore adopting ideologies and values to define itself.

The US has dominated the generation of "Culture" (broad definition) for the last 150 years. You don't see it because, at the same time, Globalization has "Americanized" the rest of the world.
Why do you think we are posting in English on an US politics message board?

[Peeperkorn]

On topic, it seems Milei would let employers pay using Bitcoin, in words of his Minister of Foreing Affairs:
https://twitter.com/DianaMondino/status/1737874320322424984?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Newspapers says that this open the posibility of payment in kind.

La Tercera's headline was "¿Vuelve la Argentina al trueque?". Gotta love the Chilean passive-aggressive trolling.

[Peeperkorn]

What Milei is trying to do by sending everything he promised to congress to be approved now (the law package has more than 300 pages and more than 1,000 articles) is actually the only strategy that could work if he wants to make structural changes. He still has the political capital that gained in the election and that probably isn't going to last for too long. He will also try to reach a compromise with congress to approve most of the proposed economic reforms leaving behind the crazier stuff that they would never accept (like the executive superpowers or the first past the post system for legislative elections).

[Peeperkorn]

Maybe we should start clarifying concepts, because I feel we are living under a collective delusion. Also, from now on, I'll try to avoid commiseration. Argentina looks like a laboratory right now and no one in the world will ever feel safe from the reactionary pandemic in its multiple variants.  Save me your condescension, western folks: Trump, Milei and the bloodthirsty Netanyahu are everyehere.

• Milei is not a liberal. He believes neither in equal opportunities nor in the srparation of powers inherent to liberal democracies.

• Milei is not a "libertarian". He is authoritarian and advocates a form of government known as Minarchy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state#Philosophy

A night-watchman state, or minarchy, whose proponents are known as minarchists, is a model of a state that is limited and minimal, whose functions depend on libertarian theory. Right-libertarians support it only as an enforcer of the non-aggression principle by providing citizens with the military, the police, and courts, thereby protecting them from aggression, theft, breach of contract, fraud, and enforcing property  

That is to say, reducing the state to rubble, preserving only the repressive apparatus and the monopololy of force. In practice, this leads to an authoritarian form of government. Inevitably anarcho-capitalism and total deregulation will foster gross unequalities, with the subsequent social unrest. The state's only function under this system will be to preserve the privileges of the people able to pay for them.

XX Century Communists advocated Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Milei and the XXI Century Minarchists are seeking to implement the Dictatorship of the Markets and the Law of the Strongest. They won't hesitate in deploying the police and the military to enforce the new order and suppress all opposition.

I would never dare to make fun or minimize Milei's proposals as "crazy stuff". Quite possibly many Argentinians voted for him believing that he was not going to implement his full agenda, but Milei always makes clear he's serious. When Milei states he's going to implement a Shock Therapy,  he's serious. When the Human Capital ministry warns that protesters will lose payments and benefits, it is serious. When Milei sends the Enabling Act to Congress,  he's acting in all seriousness.

It's up to see if the Congress and other institutions will be effective counterweights to Milei,  but stop treating him as a clown. Milei is serious.

We probably don't agree ideologically, but most of this post is true. Milei's ideology ("anarco-capitalist in principle, minarchist for practical reasons" in his own words) is as dangerous as any other "utopian" ideology that underestimates the complexity of human nature (like Marxism).

But that's another reason I resist to compare Milei to Trump or Bolsonaro. Milei comes from the academic world; he actually believes what he says (essentially the destruction of the State) and would apply it completely and without hesitation if he had enough power.

I prefer to think of Milei as a temporary necessary craziness to bring Argentina back to the "almost developed nations" club after decades of overspending, clientelism and corruption. But on the other hand, it's never a good idea to have a fanatic ideologue leading a country...

[Peeperkorn]

It's kind of crazy that you were able to go to college for free in Argentina without even being a resident. I don't know any other country that does that. In Uruguay you can go the Universidad de la Republica for free, but a three years residency is (obviously?) required.

And I don't understand why Petro is complaining here considering than Colombia doesn't offer the same benefit for its citizens.

[Peeperkorn]

Changing the topic a little bit, the most surprising thing about the last developments in Argentina is how Milei's support is stronger among young voters:



If I'm not mistaken this is the only case of right-wing populism that performs better with this demographic. Both Brazil 2022 and USA 2020 were the opposite.