UK General Discussion: Rishecession

[afleitch]

Having 'grown up' with both William and Harry only in the sense we are similar ages, William just comes across as a parody of what people think the upper classes look like. From dress, to style. He's regressed; he comes across as less normal than he did a decade or so ago. We know nothing about him. We've always known what the King's interests have been (plants and porticos) for decades. William is just...blank.

[afleitch]

I like Harry. I think the British press have absolutely done a number on him. The why is the issue that appeals to me.

With William, I have no idea what interests him. I don't know his charities other than he occasionally sells copies of the 'Big Issue' homeless magazine. I can't remember a single speech he's given in any cause or issue.

[afleitch]

The PM made a trans joke at PMQ's today.

While Brianna Ghey's mother was in the gallery.

I hate this country.

[afleitch]

Much ado about nothing over the trans joke. Slightly ill-judged perhaps but nothing to apologise for.

1. It was a joke aimed at Starmer's flip flop on the issue, not at transgenders themselves. It could easily have been said by someone who believes in transgender as an attack on Starmer for not being pro-trans enough.
2. Ghey's mother wasn't actually in the gallery at the time (though Sunak thought she was).
3. Labour are the ones weaponising the murdered child, not Sunak.

Of course the usual suspects must have their trans hobby horse to bleat on about.

Well that's alright then...

[afleitch]

Humza Yousaf has gone for a nice wee post-reshuffle holiday… in Qatar.

Totally consistent for a man who’s spent most of his time in office lecturing others about human rights and the environment, to vacation in a petro-state best known for its use of slave labour and harbouring Hamas’ leadership…

Man’s a gift to his political opponents sometimes.

I'm well aware that the Scottish press will pretend to give a sh-t about the environment and human rights for a few days but similar disqualifications would effectively restrict most British politicians from visiting family in India, Pakistan etc.

While I wouldn't holiday in Qatar if you paid me, at least he's not being thrown a bung to visit Qatar 'diplomatically', like a lot of politicians on record.

[afleitch]

I'm well aware that the Scottish press will pretend to give a sh-t about the environment and human rights for a few days but similar disqualifications would effectively restrict most British politicians from visiting family in India, Pakistan etc.

While I wouldn't holiday in Qatar if you paid me, at least he's not being thrown a bung to visit Qatar 'diplomatically', like a lot of politicians on record.

Wait… So the media are bad for pointing out the hypocrisy, but our Humza’s good, because he’s not being *bribed* to go to Qatar - he chose the viciously homophobic dictatorship because it appealed more than any of the other options?

No.

I personally don't know what possesses anyone to vacation in Qatar or other such countries. Since you brought up homophobia, I have so far not travelled anywhere that would require an overnight, never mind a direct stay in any nation that outlaws homosexuality. Which puts travel east beyond Europe almost out of reach. That's a personal choice.

If a nations environmental record, oil misuse and human rights abuses and now, their homophobia should be a disqualifier then it shouldn't matter whether it's a holiday, or a family visit, or whether the country is democratic or considers itself to be. That effectively disqualifies a number of Commonwealth nations with which we have diplomatic relations or politicians that have close family in.

Qatar lobbies and gives gifts to a sizable number of British politicians as a mere glance at the register of interests will show you. Starmer took a Qatari funded private jet in December. Mark Drakefor's hotel was paid for in 2022 during the World Cup.

So I do think it's less objectionable to take a self-funded holiday in Qatar, assuming that is what it is, than to take paid and subsidised trips from the Qatari purse.

[afleitch]

Pile on all you want. I don't really care.

I voted for Humza because I could not vote for Kate Forbes because of her views on voting against gay marriage in 2023.

Ash Regan, defected to Alba. My judgement there was correct.

I am a social liberal. I was a social liberal when I was a member of the Conservative Party. I make no apologies for that. It's entirely independent of being an SNP supporter.

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is why if 'x issues matter' (and they do) are people telling me; well human rights abuses and homophobia is tangibly different if the country is a democracy or merely claims to be. And it's okay to visit family in countries like that. And politicians being paid or lobbied by outright dictatorships like Qatar is what it is.

But Humza Yousaf taking a holiday...

I have specifically said it's not 'fine'. I'm pushing back against the narrative that it's somewhat worse.

[afleitch]

I don't think anybody is denying you're a social liberal or saying that you should have voted for a different candidate for SNP leader. They're just attacking you for being a hack.

Regarding the point about family, it's different because seeing your family is a necessary part of most people's emotional wellbeing, and you cannot choose where your family live. Whereas you can choose where you holiday.

You can chose where you holiday as I've said. I wouldn't holiday in Qatar or even spend an overnight transfer in Dubai. But for that same reason I'm more inclined to take issue with friends who chose to live and work and do business there, than those who holiday there.

And in the wider political sphere that should also carry much greater weight.

I was disappointed in Humza meeting with Erdogan. But likewise critical of the disproportionate hand-wringing over the meeting because Turkey is a UK ally. There are regular government meetings with Erdogan and there are normal diplomatic relations. The issue was Humza doing it 'unchaperoned.' The UK and subsequently the devolved nations have diplomatic and business relationships with the worst of regimes.

And we still holiday in Turkey.

[afleitch]

Speaker saves Labour faces by breaching Standing Order.

Though worth noting if the government vote down Labour's amendment, that would lead to a vote on the SNP amendment. Even though, like everything, there's little difference between the Labour and the governments wording.

https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1760302702225985662

[afleitch]

One of the longest standing and least edifying Auld Alliances is exposed again

Actually, the SNP can have a bit of slack here - they are entitled to do what they are doing, and whilst it may be annoying that it is so transparently trying to exploit internal Labour unease it is also a quite legitimate thing for a political party to do (and Labour have done it themselves often enough)

No, it is the *Tories* who have behaved here with total transparent shameless bottomless cynicism. I suspect it was that which caused Hoyle to do what he did.

The SNP position hasn't changed, rhetorically or legislatively, since the first vote.

I think it's clear, several months later that people in Labour are genuinely conflicted over failing to show moral clarity over  Gaza, and they're angry at the SNP for making them confront that in the public record.

The SNP motion is effectively what Scottish Labour passed at conference just last week.

[afleitch]

Rumours that some Labour people may have leaned on Hoyle with threats to against his position after the general election.

And as is always the way, what could have been a 24 hour media driven 'bloody nose' with respect to the vote, even though the British public are broadly in favour of an immediate ceasefire, may now drive a weeks worth of focus on Starmer's leadership and end up with the Speaker out of a job.

[afleitch]

For the record, stuff like this is why I think Flynn's attempts to weaponise Gaza are particularly shameful, beyond matters of good taste.

Running another non-binding ceasefire vote just to stir the pot was always going to increase behaviour like this, but Flynn just doesn't care. And yet he has the gall to wax on and on about the moral high-ground.

In what way is calling for a ceasefire vote, following the correct parliamentary procedures to do so, even if the Speaker upended them due to reasons that will probably become clear, in response to the actions taking place in Gaza, and in light of 66% of the population, according to YouGov supporting an immediate ceasefire, directly responsible for threats made to MP's?

[afleitch]

For the record, stuff like this is why I think Flynn's attempts to weaponise Gaza are particularly shameful, beyond matters of good taste.

Running another non-binding ceasefire vote just to stir the pot was always going to increase behaviour like this, but Flynn just doesn't care. And yet he has the gall to wax on and on about the moral high-ground.

In what way is calling for a ceasefire vote, following the correct parliamentary procedures to do so, even if the Speaker upended them due to reasons that will probably become clear, in response to the actions taking place in Gaza, and in light of 66% of the population, according to YouGov supporting an immediate ceasefire, directly responsible for threats made to MP's?

Calling for a ceasefire vote accomplishes nothing. We have no ability to force the Israelis or Hamas to make peace (though Flynn seems to think a ceasefire only requires Israel to stop fighting, showing his sophomoric grasp of reality).

Whatever amendment passes today it will have no impact on people in Gaza or Israel. It is virtue signalling. It is empty vanity.

Even if it wasn’t pointless (and to reiterate, it is), the SNP are at best very strongly implying that because Labour believe there is culpability on the part of Hamas (since, you know, they started the war) that Labour are complicit in genocide. Which is quite plainly encouraging - if not necessarily inciting - threats, and inevitably, eventually  violence against MP’s.

If taking a stated position in Parliament on any international conflict that the UK is not involved in (putting economic and military aid aside) and is unable to unilaterally stop, is just that, as you say, what would your view be when it comes to any future international conflict, humanitarian crises and indeed previous ones?

[afleitch]

And it’s plain that Stephen Flynn doesn’t care about the people of Gaza, and that he’s teamed up with Sunak

Is it? That's quite a proposition. One where people can't believe genuine things, and everything is calculated and expedient.

[afleitch]

And it’s plain that Stephen Flynn doesn’t care about the people of Gaza, and that he’s teamed up with Sunak

Is it? That's quite a proposition. One where people can't believe genuine things, and everything is calculated and expedient.

If he cared about the people of Gaza he’d:

1. Want the war to end and the people to be free, that means Hamas laying down their weapons and being removed from power
2. Want to work with Labour who have almost the exact same position rather than playing pointless games
3. Want the focus to be on them not on him throwing a fit at Lindsay Hoyle over some arcane procedure no one cares about

He is a grasping cynic quite plainly willing to use the people of Gaza as props in his ultimately futile campaign to hold on to the SNP’s position as largest party in Scotland in the next GE.

The vote was for an immediate ceasefire. Not an end to the war. Israel can take out military targets in a manner that doesn't flatten Gaza, kill thousands and leave people effectively starving.

[afleitch]

For the record, stuff like this is why I think Flynn's attempts to weaponise Gaza are particularly shameful, beyond matters of good taste.
https://twitter.com/PaulJSweeney/status/1760361270455247096
MPs have been publicly harassed, threatened and stalked over the Gaza situation. Ellwood, Reeves, Rayner, all in the past fortnight.

Running another non-binding ceasefire vote just to stir the pot was always going to increase behaviour like this, but Flynn just doesn't care. And yet he has the gall to wax on and on about the moral high-ground.

Just on that note;

You can argue whether a few people should have entered the building with placards. But it's very different from what he claimed occurred.

https://twitter.com/ejhchess/status/1760419000494817790

[afleitch]

Let's be blunt - they are furious because their totally principled, correct and in *no* way opportunistic deal with the SNP (their supposed sworn enemy, remember) was exposed for all to see.

What 'deal'?

This is getting a bit silly.

The SNP tabled their amendment. Protocol is for the government of the day to table theirs in response. That's how it works. The only thing that changed was the Speaker allowing a vote on Labour's amendment contrary to precedents on Opposition Day.

[afleitch]

I don't really follow that in not allowing Labour's weaker amendment, and therefore giving it precedent over the stronger worded amendment, Parliament was at risk.

[afleitch]

https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1762152463816090079

It rumbles on.

[afleitch]

So much time, energy, importance and legal cash - applied to a seven day suspension.

Scottish politics at its wackiest.

He just couldn't take the 'L'

[afleitch]

She talks quite seriously about how he was "radicalised" online.

He's arguably not the only MP who has gone down that road either.

The threat has always been 'inside the House' so to speak.

[afleitch]

Really putting to bed the meme 🙄

https://twitter.com/WayneDavid81/status/1766850719066231043

[afleitch]

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1766971934678352104

[afleitch]

There's a very real difference in how the two Royal households are communicating health issues. I suspect that the Princess is not well and is recovering. I suspect the illness itself may be of a sensitive nature. But the radio silence has been disastrous because it resulted in this PR disaster which has had the 'Streisand Effect' of blowing up what was gossip and memes into actual news and discussion .

[afleitch]

https://twitter.com/KensingtonRoyal/status/1767135566645092616

The response.

Probably worse than saying nothing at all.