Britain may sack teacher for refusing to remove veil

[afleitch]

Sack her? No. Ask that she respect her pupils by removing the veil and allowing them to see and understand her? Then yes.

[afleitch]

No. It's her choice if she wants to wear the veil.

If it's someones wish to teach children wearing nothing but a thong do they have that right? I mean after all they can still competently teach and what business is it of ours what they wear in public?

Or should we be honest and say that such a thing was inappropriate, had a detrimental effect on the children?

[afleitch]

But Michael it is a valid comparison. If you believe someone has a right to almost fully cover their body in a classroom, should they also have a right to alsmost fully uncover their body? Because, surely it should not matter what they wear? If I chose to wear a bag on my head so they couldn't see me and it muffled my voice because I chose to do so, then surely that should also be my choice regardless of how impractical that would be in a classroom setting?

The veil itself is not a religious garment, it is a cultural one specific to a particular part of the world. Indeed it is a very practical garment to wear in warm, dry desert climes such as Saudi Arabia. But it is not Islamic dress and its not practical nor desired in western societies. The creeping ‘Arabisation’ of Muslim standards and practices including dress code has been of increasing concern to Muslim communities around the world. In Britain in particular, the traditional cultural dress of Muslim women of Pakistani or Bangladeshi heritage is being increasingly usurped by the tight fitting Arab headscarf, as opposed to the more loose and free flowing Pakistani style that exposes the neck and hair.

Nor is the veil a religious requirement- indeed most Muslim organisations, spokespeople and MP's including Shahid Malik seem to be against it.

There are no personal, practical or religious grounds for this woman to wear the full veil in class.

[afleitch]

What I don't like about this debate is the tone of it; the whole thing has been blown out of proportion and whipped up by the media in ways that I'm not comfortable with.

It was going to happen sooner or later. What is happening is a frenzy, I agree, but the lack of proper and genuine debate without accusations of 'racist' or 'Islamophobe' being thrown about when ever the winder 'multicultural' issue was raised (and Labour ministers have been guilty of this in the recent past) has probably led to this recent rush.

We've had several steps thse past few months indeed years. The greatest of which has been the stances taken in recent years by Sir Trevor Phillips. We had the Mohammed cartoon episode at the start of the year. This summer, Jon Snow's 'Dispatches' programme was followed by John Reid's admission that it was 'not racist to impose limits on immigration.' Then came George Alagiah's book serialisation attacking his own communities lack of integration. Then came Jack Straw of all people speaking out against the veil which was backed up by Ken Livingstone.

It's simply been a discussion and debate both the public and politicians have not been allowed to have without being painted as racists or xenophobes. Most importantly it is the left and Labour that have been becoming increasingly vocal about it. It has gained 'consent' as an issue to be discussed because it is finally being discussed by those who used to tell us not to talk about it

As a result, as an issue it has lept from the pages of the Daily Mail and from conversations in private and down the pub into a national debate and one that is now crossing poltitical allegiances. So it will make people uncomfortable but I'd rather have that than pretending it is not an issue.

[afleitch]

No, it's her right to wear the veil. (And there is no comparison with your thing Afleitch, two different things)

Maybe we should sack BRTD for being a bigot.

Jedi, the pupils she worked with and other teachers at the school have stated they cannot clearly hear what she is saying because her voice is muffled and does not project to the back of the class because of the veil; this is a veil that covers all of her face apart from her eyes not a headscarf. She was suspended because of this for 'denying children their right to a full education.'  I have no problem with her walking down the street in a veil, but she cannot wear it in a school because it is impeding her ability to do the job. 

My whole point has been through comparisons to a thong and paper bag and everything is that you can't wear what ever you want in a classroom if you are a teacher or classroom assistant if it impedes a child's ability to learn.

[afleitch]

I don't listen to radio phone-ins...too many loons with insomnia tend to phone in en mass

As for the current climate, if you ignore the media hype and focus on the issues themselves, I cannot see any instances of 'Islamophobia.' Jack Straw is not phobic and neither are the lady with the veils employers. If a phobia is an irrational fear it has to be understood their propositions were completely rational; Straws wish to see his constituents faces when he speaks with them and the education authorities belief that the veil obstructs the learning process. Both are completley rational points to make. Both complaints are against the clothing, not the faith and moderate community leaders back their stances claiming the veil in itself is un-Islamic.

But then both sides of the debate begin to get involved in a slanging match that looses all sense of reason. Like begats like and we end up with fools like Christian 'Voice' coining the term 'Christophobic' and hurling that at everything that moves which is then picked up by the media and appears in readers letters in the Daily Mail.

This government has been strangely and subtely obsessed with religion to an extent previous Labour (and Conservative) governments have not, with the failed bid extend the blasphemy law, introduce faith schools at a time when it wishes to break down racial and religious segregation and watering down anti-discrimination policy in order not to 'offend' faiths and the creation of a new Communities and Local Govt department with Ruth Kelly at its head. As a Catholic myself I do fear she is unable to completely seperate her faith from the implementation of government policy.

Even when public debate is heated, we cannot shy away from tackling it even if the atmosphere is not always sensible and rational.

[afleitch]

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Straw is a bigot, or that Blair's a bigot, or that you're a bigot. However, there are bigots out there who will exploit this debate, and are.

But do you not agree that by wearing the veil, she was inadvertently disrupting the learning environment because her voice was muffled and could not project across the back of the classroom. Furthermore, the young children she taught could not look at her lips move, as someone rightly pointed out is a necessity for young children in order to learn to form certain vowel sounds.

As I said earlier

The pupils she worked with and other teachers at the school have stated they cannot clearly hear what she is saying because her voice is muffled and does not project to the back of the class because of the veil; this is a veil that covers all of her face apart from her eyes not a headscarf. She was suspended because of this for 'denying children their right to a full education.'  I have no problem with her walking down the street in a veil, but she cannot wear it in a school because it is impeding her ability to do the job. 

That's all I've been trying to put across throughout this whole thread; that what she was wearing was not practical in a classroom environment

Trying to someone to adress that that point is like trying to get blood out of a stone....

[afleitch]

Afleitch, if they sack her for being hard to hear they should sack one of my teachers for being Asian because he has a horrible accent that's very hard to understand. Now, that wouldn't be good and neither would this.

She could easily make her self heard by removing the facial part of the veil. Your Asian teachers accent is harder to rectify!

I do not support any moves to sack her as I've said before; but wearing a veil is impractical and unnecessary (in Islam a headscarf isn't required to be worn in the presence of children)

[afleitch]

For the record;

Sack her? No.Ask that she respect her pupils by removing the veil and allowing them to see and understand her? Then yes.