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John Dibble
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« on: January 08, 2008, 10:07:16 AM »

And then I realized that it isn't about it being Hillary, it is simply that in my lifetime a woman will never be elected President.

The reason isn't that people overtly think "oh a woman can't do this".  It is rather that we all look at the things that men and women do and we judge them differently based on their gender.

Certainly that last point is a factor, but to say you won't possibly see a woman president in your lifetime is premature. That would be like saying that if Obama lost you'd never see a black president in your lifetime. Hillary's problem is she's not genuine, or at the very least she doesn't come off as genuine - she comes off as cold and calculating. If a woman with genuine charisma were to run she would stand a good chance. Thinking on it Hillary tried to run as if she were a man, using tactics that men have used and sometimes hiding her feminine qualities, and this backfired because as you said we judge men and women differently. This doesn't mean a woman can't win a presidential race, it just means she has to run on the qualities we look for in a female leader and not in a male leader. This doesn't mean that she can't come across as strong, she just can't do it in the same way as a man would do it. But again, it needs to be genuine. Obama's doing well because he seems genuine, and that makes people trust him and that makes them feel good. Hillary just didn't manage to do that.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 10:43:57 AM »

The ones that make it - Thatcher, Merkel, Clarke (NZ) etc etc are tough, and they have had to be to survive in politics.

I think this comes back to one of my earlier points - you have to be genuine. That's probably the most important thing. From what I know of Thatcher, she was genuinely tough and she let people know it. Hillary might be trying to come off as tougher than she actually is I think, and that's a problem. It's also a problem if she's trying to appear softer than she actually is. I've heard that a number of people on Clinton's campaign team feel that Hillary the candidate isn't the same person as Hillary the person. Whether Hillary is actually a tough bitch with balls or not, she needed to run as what she is, but I think maybe she tried to ride the fence to please everyone. If you're a tough bitch run as one and be proud of it, and if you're not then don't and be proud of it, just don't try to do both.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2008, 02:58:50 PM »

Wakie, I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to consider it seriously before you answer - all else being equal, would Hillary have even gotten as far as she has if she wasn't a woman? That is to say would she have warranted enough attention as a politician to have even run a campaign for presidency that would have been taken seriously?
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John Dibble
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2008, 03:14:09 PM »

By contrast though, I think if you change Barack Obama to be Jamila Obama, there is no Presidential campaign.

Why not? I get the one on Georgina Bush - makes perfect sense given he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But what about Obama would make him a failure as a candidate if he was a woman?
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John Dibble
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2008, 03:32:49 PM »

Gabu, if you've never heard those attacks then I wonder where you have been.  So lets talk about what YOUR attacks have been then.  Please list.

JSojourner, you are correct about the Barbara Jordan speeches.  Fantastic speeches delivered by a brilliant woman.  It is a shame that her gender held her back from being Carter's VP.  She would have been a far better challenger for Reagan in '84 than Mondale was.

Dibs, Obama would be held back for the same reason that Barbara Jordan was held back.

First off, Carter was back a couple decades ago - how many state Governors and Senators were women when he was elected? I'd guess far fewer. Second, supposing that Obama made it to Senator as a woman (not a bad assumption given we've got a few today), I don't see a reason why a female Obama couldn't run today all else being equal. People would still hate Clinton, and if Obama were a woman it might even have given him a greater edge.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2008, 03:41:29 PM »

Oh, and as for the #'s.  7 out of 50 Governors and 16 out of 100 Senators seems like an awful small # when you consider that women are just over 50% of the population.  And the reason I believe this small number has reached these positions but won't reach the White House is because Governors and Senators are seen as workers.  The President is seen as a Leader.

Might this not have something to do with women running for office at a lower rate than men?
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John Dibble
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2008, 06:17:17 PM »

I don't respect someone who says "she's too cold" but doesn't feel that way about Al Gore.

I've said she's cold, but I wouldn't feel that way about Al Gore because he's not. At least not in the same context. Al Gore is boring. He's got the charisma of a rock. He'd be a drag at parties. Hillary on the other hand isn't boring. I could see her being fun at parties. She's cold in a different way.
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