Conservatives, what is your most liberal aspect(s)? & vice versa

[Gustaf]

Nice to see another Dem favouring school vouchers. My conservative issues:

1. Pro-school vouchers.

2. Fiscally conservative.

3. Favour free trade, scepytical towards unions.

4. Distrusts government and want it to remain small.

5. Believe in a fairly tough foreign policy, supported the Iraq War.

6. Think it's important with personal resonsibility and think people shouldn't be able to run away from it.

7. Thinks goverment has a moral obligation to keep away from people's lives, both on social issues and economic ones.

8. Think it's vital to uphold law and order, be tough on criminals, harsh punishments, etc.

9. Undecided on abortion, moderately leaning against capital punishment.

10. Dislikes France...

[Gustaf]

Nice to see another Dem favouring school vouchers. My conservative issues:

1. Pro-school vouchers.

2. Fiscally conservative.

3. Favour free trade, scepytical towards unions.

4. Distrusts government and want it to remain small.

5. Believe in a fairly tough foreign policy, supported the Iraq War.

6. Think it's important with personal resonsibility and think people shouldn't be able to run away from it.

7. Thinks goverment has a moral obligation to keep away from people's lives, both on social issues and economic ones.

8. Think it's vital to uphold law and order, be tough on criminals, harsh punishments, etc.

9. Undecided on abortion, moderately leaning against capital punishment.

10. Dislikes France...

So once again, why are you sporting the Red avatar, Gus?

The conservatives scare me more than the liberals...I can live being in the same party as most of the Dem posters, but being in the same party as PD, Brambilla, StatesRights, Opebo, etc gives me the shudders. I support gay rights and I'm not American, remember?

[Gustaf]

Nice to see another Dem favouring school vouchers. My conservative issues:

1. Pro-school vouchers.

2. Fiscally conservative.

3. Favour free trade, scepytical towards unions.

4. Distrusts government and want it to remain small.

5. Believe in a fairly tough foreign policy, supported the Iraq War.

6. Think it's important with personal resonsibility and think people shouldn't be able to run away from it.

7. Thinks goverment has a moral obligation to keep away from people's lives, both on social issues and economic ones.

8. Think it's vital to uphold law and order, be tough on criminals, harsh punishments, etc.

9. Undecided on abortion, moderately leaning against capital punishment.

10. Dislikes France...

So once again, why are you sporting the Red avatar, Gus?

The conservatives scare me more than the liberals...I can live being in the same party as most of the Dem posters, but being in the same party as PD, Brambilla, StatesRights, Opebo, etc gives me the shudders. I support gay rights and I'm not American, remember?

I know you aren't an American and I know you support gay rights and I know that some of those guys are scarey at times, but don't think of it as their party, think of it as Supersoulty's party.

LOL! What a brain-washing attempt! 'It's Supersoulty's party...they're all nice...' You know, it almost worked, b/c I do like you...but it didn't remove the image of 'gay people are mentally disordered'-posts which is all to fresh...and due to my background I don't want to leave poor people to die just b/c they didn't succeed in life. But if the green avatar wasn't so damn ugly I might use that instead...but I have to choose one colour and right now I'm fine with this...but I might change it in the future of course...

[Gustaf]

Nice to see another Dem favouring school vouchers. My conservative issues:

1. Pro-school vouchers.

2. Fiscally conservative.

3. Favour free trade, scepytical towards unions.

4. Distrusts government and want it to remain small.

5. Believe in a fairly tough foreign policy, supported the Iraq War.

6. Think it's important with personal resonsibility and think people shouldn't be able to run away from it.

7. Thinks goverment has a moral obligation to keep away from people's lives, both on social issues and economic ones.

8. Think it's vital to uphold law and order, be tough on criminals, harsh punishments, etc.

9. Undecided on abortion, moderately leaning against capital punishment.

10. Dislikes France...

So once again, why are you sporting the Red avatar, Gus?

The conservatives scare me more than the liberals...I can live being in the same party as most of the Dem posters, but being in the same party as PD, Brambilla, StatesRights, Opebo, etc gives me the shudders. I support gay rights and I'm not American, remember?

I know you aren't an American and I know you support gay rights and I know that some of those guys are scarey at times, but don't think of it as their party, think of it as Supersoulty's party.

LOL! What a brain-washing attempt! 'It's Supersoulty's party...they're all nice...' You know, it almost worked, b/c I do like you...but it didn't remove the image of 'gay people are mentally disordered'-posts which is all to fresh...and due to my background I don't want to leave poor people to die just b/c they didn't succeed in life. But if the green avatar wasn't so damn ugly I might use that instead...but I have to choose one colour and right now I'm fine with this...but I might change it in the future of course...

Who's for all of that.  I certainly am not and I think that most reps., though socially most Reps on here are conservative, I think that economically they are less so.  At anyrate, there are extremists in the other party too.  You could just try on the blue for a while and see how you like it.  

I did that before...it's a nice colour... :/]

And yes, there are certainly extremists in the Dem party as well, and I disagree with them rather a lot, but they don't SCARE me as much as the Republican extremists...but as I said before, if there was a centrist patry I'd probably join that one...

[Gustaf]

Well lets see…I would say that I’m fairly moderate on most issues…

I believe in a small, low cost federal government…with the onus placed on state government for things like welfare etc…

I support the idea of American Internationalism in that America should work aggressive to promote and export democracy across the world…

I support the notion of involving faith groups in welfare programs…not replacing the federal government but assisting as private companies do and should…however I would quibble with ultra-conservative groups being so involved…

On cultural issues such as gay marriage and abortion…I’m probably on the right of the party I pretty much share the views of Evan Bayh…while I’m personally opposed under most circumstances (of course instances of rape, incest, danger to the mothers’ health or the risk that the child would be horrifically handicapped I would support the mothers right to decided on the fate of HER child)….on euthanasia I think that a civilised society should leave open to its citizens the right to end their lives so long as they are themselves of sane mind or there instructions (in the case of “living wills”) where given when they where of sane mind in the presence of reputable witnesses…on gay marriage I have mixed feelings, on the one hand I think that gay people are as capable of having loving and rewarding relationships as straight couples and as such should have the same legal rights as heterosexual couples however the idea of recognising these relationships as on a par with what I see as a far more desirable heterosexual relationships worries me, as I think that the only environment where children should be brought up is within a family that consists of a man and a women in a loving relationship and I think that society should encourage that and by legalising gay marriage I think we are not…as I said I have mixed views….

But hey I’m starting to ramble…                  

I think we're pretty close to each other, I'm close to oyu on those social issues.

[Gustaf]

Nice to see another Dem favouring school vouchers. My conservative issues:

1. Pro-school vouchers.

2. Fiscally conservative.

3. Favour free trade, scepytical towards unions.

4. Distrusts government and want it to remain small.

5. Believe in a fairly tough foreign policy, supported the Iraq War.

6. Think it's important with personal resonsibility and think people shouldn't be able to run away from it.

7. Thinks goverment has a moral obligation to keep away from people's lives, both on social issues and economic ones.

8. Think it's vital to uphold law and order, be tough on criminals, harsh punishments, etc.

9. Undecided on abortion, moderately leaning against capital punishment.

10. Dislikes France...

So once again, why are you sporting the Red avatar, Gus?

The conservatives scare me more than the liberals...I can live being in the same party as most of the Dem posters, but being in the same party as PD, Brambilla, StatesRights, Opebo, etc gives me the shudders. I support gay rights and I'm not American, remember?

I know you aren't an American and I know you support gay rights and I know that some of those guys are scarey at times, but don't think of it as their party, think of it as Supersoulty's party.

LOL! What a brain-washing attempt! 'It's Supersoulty's party...they're all nice...' You know, it almost worked, b/c I do like you...but it didn't remove the image of 'gay people are mentally disordered'-posts which is all to fresh...and due to my background I don't want to leave poor people to die just b/c they didn't succeed in life. But if the green avatar wasn't so damn ugly I might use that instead...but I have to choose one colour and right now I'm fine with this...but I might change it in the future of course...

Who's for all of that.  I certainly am not and I think that most reps., though socially most Reps on here are conservative, I think that economically they are less so.  At anyrate, there are extremists in the other party too.  You could just try on the blue for a while and see how you like it.  

I did that before...it's a nice colour... :/]

And yes, there are certainly extremists in the Dem party as well, and I disagree with them rather a lot, but they don't SCARE me as much as the Republican extremists...but as I said before, if there was a centrist patry I'd probably join that one...

We may have one of those soon.  At least for the Fantasy Elections.  

That'd be awesome!

[Gustaf]

I think it's funny to hear people say that we shouldn't legalize gay marriage because society should promote child-rearing with a man and a woman...

Maybe we should illegalize divorce and having children out of wedlock then.  Since the VAST majority of children will be impacted by this phenomenon and not by a bunch of gays who want to get married.  

I think I read somewhere that half the children adopted in this country are by gays...  If that's true, where are all these children going to go...  I'm sure Pat Robertson isn't going to adopt them all... he's too busy trying to sell his crap to people who are too dumb to breathe without instructions...  

What does this have to do with the topic? And I doubt that that adoption number is true, it was legalized recentrly in Sweden and the number of interested people was very low.

[Gustaf]

My most liberal stance on an issue is...... ::drum roll::


I'm against the death penalty.

This is not a liberal position, and it is one that you and I share, along with only about 20% of all Republicans and 35% of all Democrats.  

It seems liberal to me?

[Gustaf]

I have to admit I have a little trouble with this.  I keep thinking about the terms Left and Right.  Which we get from France.  (I have no problems with the most of the French people whom I've met.)  The aristocracy sat to the right (droit) of the king and the unwashed masses sat to the left (gauche) of the king.  So, if you're poor you probably support socialized medicine, etc.  If you're rich, you probably say, "let them eat cake."  But, on non-economic issues, how do we define liberal?  Can you give me a succint definition, so that I might consider whether my positions on non-economic issues are 'liberal' or 'conservative'.

Thanks for the history lesson, though I was aware of the hitory of left and right...

I link conservatism to Hobbes and Golding, the belief that man is evil and has to be controlled by a strong state, i.e. a strong law and order. I also link it to Burke and the concept of pragmatism, not being to interested in moral principles. Liberals, in the classic sense, which I THINK is appliable even in the US on social issues, value the individual and want to keep the state out of people's lives. With that base I find it easy to characterize opposition to capital punishment as liberal.

[Gustaf]

I have to admit I have a little trouble with this.  I keep thinking about the terms Left and Right.  Which we get from France.  (I have no problems with the most of the French people whom I've met.)  The aristocracy sat to the right (droit) of the king and the unwashed masses sat to the left (gauche) of the king.  So, if you're poor you probably support socialized medicine, etc.  If you're rich, you probably say, "let them eat cake."  But, on non-economic issues, how do we define liberal?  Can you give me a succint definition, so that I might consider whether my positions on non-economic issues are 'liberal' or 'conservative'.

Thanks for the history lesson, though I was aware of the hitory of left and right...

I link conservatism to Hobbes and Golding, the belief that man is evil and has to be controlled by a strong state, i.e. a strong law and order. I also link it to Burke and the concept of pragmatism, not being to interested in moral principles. Liberals, in the classic sense, which I THINK is appliable even in the US on social issues, value the individual and want to keep the state out of people's lives. With that base I find it easy to characterize opposition to capital punishment as liberal.

Given Burke, I am extremely conservative.  Given Hobbes and Golding, I am extremely liberal.  Take your pick.  I support decriminalization of prostitution, marijuana, and all forms of gambling.  I also support the right to keep and bear arms and the right to terminate a pregnancy and the right to keep your hard-earned paycheck.  I'm a strong believer in questioning all authority as well.  For me, those come from the same place.  Limited government.  Yet some of those positions are rather arbitrarily labelled liberal while others are arbitrarily labelled conservative.  

I think NickG hit the nail on the head when he said that the unfortunate language used by many 'liberals' in opposition to abortion restrictions is insulting to individuals who come to their Pro-Life positions from deeply held moral beliefs.  Teresa Heinz Kerry gave a wonderful interview to the NYT, a few weeks ago, in which she excoriated those who use such offensive (and rather unsophisticated) language as 'keep your laws offa my body' in defense of abortion rights.  I appreciated her insight.

In any case, I can't imagine that a candidate's position on such trivial matters as abortion rights and homosexual marriage would affect something important as the selection of our Commander-in-Chief.

Well, this problem occurs b/c you Americans messed up the political labels... You're basically a liberal, in the real sense. That makes you conservative on some issues and liberal on other in the American context and makes you seem inconcsistent. But you're basically a classic liberal.

[Gustaf]

Thank you.  I have saying just that, as you well know from my previous posts.  

But don't go around calling me a 'liberal' as it is a very pejorative term in some circles    

Lol, of course not, the L-word will not pass my lips as a reference to you, oh, ye mighty arch-conservative.

And I'll add being against AA like CD is.

[Gustaf]

Ok I am a Libertarian, which most folks confuse with conservative, but here goes..

1) Don't like Death Penalty.
       a)  - I think making 'em rot in Jail for 50 years is actually worse punishment
       b) -  There are documented cases where innocent people have been convicted
       c) -   Poor people with bad lawyers get executed for murder, rich people with good laywers get 8-12 for manslaughter
       d) - I am unable to draw that fine a moral line in my own mind.  Usually it is not enough to "just" kill somebody - usually there has to be a "special circumstance" - So if you kill and rape, you die, but not if you "just" kill...  What about 1 murder, two robberies, 5 assualts and 87 parking tickets.. where EXACTLY do you draw the line between life and death.. I do not feel I personally am able to draw that line.

2) Gay Marriage
        a) - How two consenting adults define the terms of their own private personal relationship is the business of the government because....? (waiting for an answer...)

3) War on Drugs
        a) - Tossing a 18 year old with 2 ounces of pot into Jail for 20 years, costing the taxpayer millions in prison costs, wrecking his family, and defacto making it impossible for that person to ever have a productive life is good public public because...? (waiting for an answer...)

       

Lol, we have too many heated debates on gay marriage already...

I certainly wouldn't confuse libertarian with liberal...when did it become 'THE Vorlon'?

[Gustaf]

It will adjust itself in the end. Besides, if people want to pay more money for American products, let them do so, in the market-place, but don't FORCE everyone to do so through tariffs. Hell, the workers can subsidize it themselves, by paying overprize for the products they make. I see no reason why other people in the coutnry should be forced into subventionizing unproductive industries.

[Gustaf]

No politician would be elected if they voiced the idea that the marketplace should decide whuch company succeeds when the companies most apt to failure in a open market are those who hire the voters they are courting.

Correct, but doesn't really have much to do with my point...

[Gustaf]

Gustaf, the non-sequitur posts are really my favorite ones, at least in this forum.  It emphasizes the futility of every word anyone ever types.  (As though any of us really think we can accurate predict state-by-state winners or tell which cities will be important in 20 years, etc.)  Don't you think the occassional lesson in humility is a wonderful thing.

Why isn't there a questionmark on the last sentence, rethorical question, or did you just not expect a sensible answer anyway and was trying to make a point.

I don't personally think I can predict state-by-state winners accurately, etc. or maybe:

[Gustaf]

Ew.. toughie..

1. Pro-civil unions. I don't like gay marriage, but support civil unions. Any two consenting adults should be allowed a civil union, regardless of race, sex, or kindred.

2. Anti-censoring.

3. Anti-death penalty in most issues. Death penalty should be very rare if not nonexistent.

4. Pro-affirmative action until I get into Berkeley... then I'll be against it... muahaha

1. I mean, ..............

[Gustaf]

Anti-medicine-  I don't know if this is conservative or liberal but I think that if you're sick than that sucks for you, either die or get over it.

What the hell was I thinking?  It occurs to me that the use of prescription lenses weaken our species.  600 years ago, only about 2% of the population or less had poor eyesight.  It remained an occassional aberation because if you had bad eyes, you stumbled off a cliff before you passed on your genes.  So humans could see very well.  But since the invention of glasses, nearly-blind people can live long enough to have children, to pass on the bad-eyesight gene.  By now, the portion of the population having bad eyesight will be around one-fifth.  And that's only going to get bigger!

I guess we're figuring out the difference between 'compassionate' and 'conservative' eh, rightwingnut?  No need to let any of that compassion get in our way.

One of the reasons for it being so nice with a red avatar, you know...

[Gustaf]

But Saudia Arabia, an otherwise very rightist state has one of the best systems of socialized medicine in the world.  Keep the peasants happy and silent if you give them free drugs and bandages, right?  So it's not quite that simple gustaf.  Sorry, you know I like to take a big dump on the simple questions just to make 'em think harder, because, unlike Ross Perot used to say, it is not "just that simple people."

Well, I don't see it affecting my point, since it's rightist, as you say. Now, i guess if you'd brought up Cuba it would've been different...

Seriously, I value civil liberties much higher than medicine, at least in theory.

[Gustaf]

As do I young swede.  That's why mine is blue.  

Ah, and why mine is red.

[Gustaf]

Anti-medicine-  I don't know if this is conservative or liberal but I think that if you're sick than that sucks for you, either die or get over it.

What the hell was I thinking?  It occurs to me that the use of prescription lenses weaken our species.  600 years ago, only about 2% of the population or less had poor eyesight.  It remained an occassional aberation because if you had bad eyes, you stumbled off a cliff before you passed on your genes.  So humans could see very well.  But since the invention of glasses, nearly-blind people can live long enough to have children, to pass on the bad-eyesight gene.  By now, the portion of the population having bad eyesight will be around one-fifth.  And that's only going to get bigger!

I guess we're figuring out the difference between 'compassionate' and 'conservative' eh, rightwingnut?  No need to let any of that compassion get in our way.

We're g up the natural evolution towards a more fit gene pool.  Unless we stop, it will be our downfall as a specie.

That's almost Opebo-like...I'm a humanist myself, so I obivously don't agree with your sentiment.

[Gustaf]

The secularism in America is becoming ridiculous. Teachers can't say the word God or wear a cross around their neck, and the !@#$ing Christmas Vacation, the week off from school that kids love, has become the "Non-Denominational Winter Holiday Break".

In my country a teacher can always wear a cross, a star, a veil, an ankh, a wheel, a yin-yang symbol, or whatever they like.  I hope.  This is not USSR (or France).  Nor will you ever hear the word secularism pass my lips, except in reference to the statements of others.  It is a silly word describing an artificial concept for people with narrow minds who disdain religion.  In fact, it is a replacement for religion.  Since I am not religious and have no need for religion, I have no need for any replacement thereof.  

With the exception of welfare, I agree with everything you posit "on the flip side."

Secularism is about separating church from state. People's private religious beliefs are all fine by me. Religious traditions that has become national, popular traditions, such as Christmas break is different and shouldn't be messed up by PC, liberal idiots...

[Gustaf]

Angus,

I will, however unwillingly, admit to being a little, well, stupid, in my last post...

I should of course have realized that secularISM, was an ism of some sort and my assumption of what it referred to was rather unfounded. I do believe in secular humanism as the basis on which to found a society and I am willing to agree that it's a moral belief, just like a religion. And my country is relatively secular, yes, at least the society is.

[Gustaf]

I personally am pro-idea and anti-belief.  When you believe in something then your mental faculties are weakened by the constraints those beliefs bring.  That's my idea at the moment.  Ideas are in the end evanescent, I think.

How do you define the difference between an idea and a belief?

[Gustaf]

An idea can change by a brief logical discussion; a belief may never change and if it does, it will take repeated sessions or an enlightenment to change.

Ah, OK. Then beliefs are linked to morality...I see where you're going, and I'm afraid I won't be traveling with you to the land of moral relativism...