SF voters pass measure to drug test welfare recipients

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

Most people addicted to opioids don’t want to be on powerful street drugs like heroin or fentanyl. But in a legal market, an addict could buy some pharmaceutical-grade oxycodone instead and continue to function. The black market pushes people towards more powerful drugs they don’t actually want.

yeah, but drug companies were making money off of poor drug addicts and that's way worse than tens of thousands of OD's a year....apparently.

No one wants to admit that the opioid crisis started when doctors stopped prescribing the drugs and people were forced to switch to unsafe street drugs. People weren’t mass overdosing on OxyContin.

They weren’t mass oding yes but their lives were falling apart as they self harmed for more meds or stole from others or started to sell off items to fund the addiction, ultimately, we cannot solve the human condition, human suffering is part of life and people will find a way to cope with it whether through alcohol meds foood or god or something

Yes.  The solution to all our social problems is a spiritual revival, not bureaucratic knob-twiddling.

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

If you work in a big enough office I'd be surprised if there isn't at least once person you work with who uses heroin and you don't know it.

Yes, and if they continue to use their lives will become increasingly unmanageable until their dependency is such that it interferes with their relationships, finances, mental health, ability to take care of themselves, etc.  I only pray that they preempt this cycle and get sober before another life is ruined by the spiritual disease of addiction. 

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

Most people addicted to opioids don’t want to be on powerful street drugs like heroin or fentanyl. But in a legal market, an addict could buy some pharmaceutical-grade oxycodone instead and continue to function. The black market pushes people towards more powerful drugs they don’t actually want.

Most people on heroin have never been prescribed legal opioids.  Putting oxy on the shelves just makes it more accessible, which is just going to extend the scrounge of addiction further. 

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

If you work in a big enough office I'd be surprised if there isn't at least once person you work with who uses heroin and you don't know it.

Yes, and if they continue to use their lives will become increasingly unmanageable until their dependency is such that it interferes with their relationships, finances, mental health, ability to take care of themselves, etc.  I only pray that they preempt this cycle and get sober before another life is ruined by the spiritual disease of addiction. 

[snip]

Your statistics make a very uncompelling case.  By your own back-of-the-napkin estimates, heroin users participate in the labor force (i.e., employed or unemployed seeking employment) at half the rate as everyone else.  And that's includes all people who used at least once in the past 12 months?  The rate for those who are regular users/addicts would be even lower.

Walk down the streets of any major U.S. city and see the homeless, the vagrants, the street workers and you will be face to face with heroin users.  I have friends–young, successful and bright men in their 20s–who have died from overdoses, and many more who are now spiritually dead in their addictions.  Statistics are silent where anecdotes speak to what has happened in the lives of real people.  They belong in this discussion.

The "live-at-let-live" attitude of mass drug destigmitization and legalization places all the responsibility for the poor outcomes associated with drug use on an oppressive "system" that is only too overzealous to punish people who are only down on their luck, trying to have a little bit of fun, etc., etc.  But it isn't true.  Addiction harms and kills people who never have any interaction with the criminal justice system.  Putting more powerful substances into the hands of more people is only going to make things worse. 

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

If you work in a big enough office I'd be surprised if there isn't at least once person you work with who uses heroin and you don't know it.

Yes, and if they continue to use their lives will become increasingly unmanageable until their dependency is such that it interferes with their relationships, finances, mental health, ability to take care of themselves, etc.  I only pray that they preempt this cycle and get sober before another life is ruined by the spiritual disease of addiction.  

[snip]

Your statistics make a very uncompelling case.  By your own back-of-the-napkin estimates, heroin users participate in the labor force (i.e., employed or unemployed seeking employment) at half the rate as everyone else.  And that's includes all people who used at least once in the past 12 months?  The rate for those who are regular users/addicts would be even lower.

Walk down the streets of any major U.S. city and see the homeless, the vagrants, the street workers and you will be face to face with heroin users.  I have friends–young, successful and bright men in their 20s–who have died from overdoses, and many more who are now spiritually dead in their addictions.  Statistics are silent where anecdotes speak to what has happened in the lives of real people.  They belong in this discussion.

The "live-at-let-live" attitude of mass drug destigmitization and legalization places all the responsibility for the poor outcomes associated with drug use on an oppressive "system" that is only too overzealous to punish people who are only down on their luck, trying to have a little bit of fun, etc., etc.  But it isn't true.  Addiction harms and kills people who never have any interaction with the criminal justice system.  Putting more powerful substances into the hands of more people is only going to make things worse.  

Indeed, all you have are anecdotes and paternalistic feelings. How many of the people who died, died from fentanyl laced heroin which would not happen if all drugs were legal and regulated.

The problem with policy based on feelings and emotion is that it tends to result in the worst outcomes, the road to Hell being paved with good intentions and all that.

I recall you were one of the "live and let live" Covidiots who didn't want to be told what to do, but seem to think you have the authoritarian right to tell other people the choices they must make, even though the Covidiots were the equivalent of fentanyl laced drugs out on the streets quietly infecting and killing other people. You might want to reflect on your self serving hypocrisy as well.

Fentanyl is legal and regulated.  Is your suggestion that anybody be allowed to buy oxy off-the-shelf at CVS?  LOL

We see how the drug legalization regime went in Oregon.  After only 3 years, the state is clawing it back.  Turns out legal dope doesn't benefit anybody.  Of course, this is only news for braindead liberals.  

[Del Tachi]

I can understand the frustration but most problems of illicit drugs are the direct result of drugs being illegal. This will accomplish nothing.

No.  Legal heroin will not put more users into good homes/jobs.  Addiction saps the life force out of its victims.  It becomes impossible to take care of yourself if you're hooked on serious drugs.

If you work in a big enough office I'd be surprised if there isn't at least once person you work with who uses heroin and you don't know it.

Yes, and if they continue to use their lives will become increasingly unmanageable until their dependency is such that it interferes with their relationships, finances, mental health, ability to take care of themselves, etc.  I only pray that they preempt this cycle and get sober before another life is ruined by the spiritual disease of addiction. 

[snip]

Your statistics make a very uncompelling case.  By your own back-of-the-napkin estimates, heroin users participate in the labor force (i.e., employed or unemployed seeking employment) at half the rate as everyone else.  And that's includes all people who used at least once in the past 12 months?  The rate for those who are regular users/addicts would be even lower.

Walk down the streets of any major U.S. city and see the homeless, the vagrants, the street workers and you will be face to face with heroin users.  I have friends–young, successful and bright men in their 20s–who have died from overdoses, and many more who are now spiritually dead in their addictions.  Statistics are silent where anecdotes speak to what has happened in the lives of real people.  They belong in this discussion.

The "live-at-let-live" attitude of mass drug destigmitization and legalization places all the responsibility for the poor outcomes associated with drug use on an oppressive "system" that is only too overzealous to punish people who are only down on their luck, trying to have a little bit of fun, etc., etc.  But it isn't true.  Addiction harms and kills people who never have any interaction with the criminal justice system.  Putting more powerful substances into the hands of more people is only going to make things worse. 

Indeed, all you have are anecdotes and paternalistic feelings. How many of the people who died, died from fentanyl laced heroin which would not happen if all drugs were legal and regulated.

The problem with policy based on feelings and emotion is that it tends to result in the worst outcomes, the road to Hell being paved with good intentions and all that.

I recall you were one of the "live and let live" Covidiots who didn't want to be told what to do, but seem to think you have the authoritarian right to tell other people the choices they must make, even though the Covidiots were the equivalent of fentanyl laced drugs out on the streets quietly infecting and killing other people. You might want to reflect on your self serving hypocrisy as well.

Fentanyl is legal and regulated, you idiot.  Is your suggestion that anybody be allowed to buy oxy off-the-shelf at CVS?  LOL

It's likely that very few people would consume fentanyl intentionally if other choices were also legally available.

...if we did what?  Gave every American access to legal heroin?  All that does is create new addicts and ruin the lives of more people.  How compassionate of you!

[Del Tachi]

snip

Blah blah blah.  No one except you gets their rocks off comparing covid to f[inks]ing opioids.  You really are one of the worst posters on this site, aren't you?

The idea that "everyone interested already has access to illicit heroin" is false, or at least not well-supported.  Alcohol and tobacco are abused more than 10-times-over compared to heroin exactly because they're legal and readily available.  Legalizing marijuana has extended its use.  It really takes some motivated mental gymnastics to believe making something more available would result is fewer people using it.     

[Del Tachi]

snip

Once again, there is no comparison between forced school closures and vaccine mandates and firggin' legal heroin dude.  If you want to start a talk about "covidiots" three years too late, start a new thread. 

Also, you read the wrong section of the report. States that legalize marijuana had increasing rates of marijuana use:

In many states, use increased modestly in the years leading up to legalization. For example, Maine’s participation rate hovered around 12–13 percent between 2003 and 2009; it then increased to 14 percent in 2011, 16 percent in 2013, and 19 percent from 2014 through 2016. After legalization in 2016, the increase continued to 22 percent in 2017 and almost 24 percent in 2018. Similarly, marijuana use in Massachusetts began increasing in 2012, several years prior to its legalization in 2016. Maine and Massachusetts track the pattern previously seen with early legalizers (Colorado, Washington, Alaska, and Oregon)

This isn't surprising.  Legalize a formerly illicit substance and more people will use it.  The suggestion to do the same with something as dangerous and addictive as heroin is farcical, and cannot be justified under a "harm reduction" principle.  The individual and social harm of more people using heroin completely outweighs any potential decrease in the number of fentanyl overdoses.

[Del Tachi]

snip

1.  No.  You brought up "covidiots" to suggest there's something hypocritical about right-wingers wanting "muh freedoms" during the pandemic but not being ok with legalizing hard drugs.  But there is no comparison because opioids are much more dangerous than coronavirus ever was.

2.  You cannot justify legalizing hard drugs like heroin under a harm reduction principle.  Any reduction in fentanyl overdoses would be counteracted by a surge in the number of people initiating or escalating their opioid use after those drugs are legalized, thus increasing overall addiction rates and their associated harms.