Gays in the Military

[Brambila]

I think the "Don't ask; don't tell" policy is a good one. The reason why men and women are separated in the military is because they distract eachother- so having openly-gay men in the military just creates problems. If a homosexual was in the military with men and was openly gay, you bet he's going to hit on men and have sexual relations- just like if a man was in a woman's division. Does this mean we should put gays in the women's division? No, because that would distract the women.

The truth is it just becomes a distraction.

[Brambila]

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The military does that anyway! That's the "Don't ask; Don't tell" policy. Where else would the gays mention their sexuality? In front of recruiters? Why would they do that? When I've spoken to recruiters, I never think of mentioning "Oh, by the way, I'm straight", because it's simply not an issue.  

By your logic, should we allow men and women to serve in the same divisions, shower together, share tents, etc?

[Brambila]

trust me, we don't spend nearly as much time checking out straight men as straight men spoend checking out women

It is easy enough to 'turn off' the sexual desire. I don't spend every moment at school checking out my best friends' arse.

That's irrelevent. Why are men and women separated in the military? Because they're distractions towards eachother.

[Brambila]

I support keeping the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy.

While it would be nice if sexual orientation were not a divisive issue but the fact is that it is and it could cause some disruption and distraction from the military's one and only goal - protecting all Americans, whether gay or straight.

One of the basises of your party is to divide based upon sexual orientation.

By that logic, we should allow women and men to serve in the same forces, otherwise we're guilty of "sexism".

[Brambila]

Nym,

Your choice is this: homosexuals can either join a male division or a female division. If they join a male division, it will be equivalent a man joining a woman’s division, which can cause various problems. The man would be subject to constantly having sexual distractions. It would ludicrous to say he wouldn’t, and I don’t care  how your gay friends act, as if they truly act normal they are either lying or are not gay. The truth of the matter is, homosexuals are attracted to the same sex, and if they are in a position where they are very close to the person of the same sex, they WILL be tempted, exactly like how a man in a woman’s division would act. Now, if the gay man joins the women’s division, then he will cause the same distraction among the women.

As a matter of fact, we already know that putting women in men’s divisions is wrong. Even when women are in the same campgrounds, problems have arisen. Rape for women in the military has increased in the last few years. In one year alone, 9% of women in the marines were victims of rape, along with 8% in the Army and 6% in the Navy (1). We know from this that men in the military are of course VERY sexually active. I’ve been a book about a 1993 US military invasion of Mogadishu, and in it the author wrote that the soldiers were very open about masturbation, and it wasn’t always taken humorously (2). Soldiers are young and therefore most sexually active, so putting ANY sort of sexual reminders are huge distractions to their duties.

Rape does exist among homosexuals about the same rate as heterosexuals. Sure, men are strong, but some men are stronger than others. Likewise, some women are stronger than men. Your point is irrelevant. I honestly don’t care if you think you could beat up a homosexual, I’m sure there are plenty of homosexuals out there who could beat up a soldier, especially after training.

Question, Nym: Can you honestly say you would not be distracted if you were serving in a division, showering with, and spending your time 24/7 with a bunch of really sweaty, athletic, sexy women?

I’d like to quote what the military says about the “Don’t Ask: Don’t Tell” policy.



1. (B) POLICY. -A MEMBER OF THE ARMED FORCES SHALL BE SEPARATED FROM THE ARMED FORCES UNDER REGULATIONS PRESCRIBED BY THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE IF ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING FINDINGS IS MADE AND APPROVED IN ACCORDANCE WITH PROCEDURES SET FORTH IN SUCH REGULATIONS:

1. THAT THE MEMBER HAS ENGAGED IN, ATTEMPTED TO ENGAGE IN, OR SOLICITED ANOTHER TO ENGAGE IN A HOMOSEXUAL ACT OR ACTS UNLESS THERE ARE FURTHER FINDINGS, MADE AND APPROVED IN ACCORDANCE WITH PROCEDURES SET FORTH IN SUCH REGULATIONS, THAT THE MEMBER HAS DEMONSTRATED THAT-

(A) SUCH CONDUCT IS A DEPARTURE FROM THE MEMBER'S USUAL AND CUSTOMARY BEHAVIOR;

(B) SUCH CONDUCT, UNDER ALL THE CIRCUMSTANCES, IS UNLIKELY TO RECUR;

(C) SUCH CONDUCT WAS NOT ACCOMPLISHED BY USE OF FORCE, COERCION, OR INTIMIDATION;

(D) UNDER THE PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CASE, THE MEMBER'S CONTINUED PRESENCE IN THE ARMED FORCES IS CONSISTENT WITH THE INTERESTS OF THE ARMED FORCES IN PROPER DISCIPLINE, GOOD ORDER, AND MORALE; AND

(E) THE MEMBER DOES NOT HAVE A PROPENSITY OR INTENT TO ENGAGE IN HOMOSEXUAL ACTS.

2. THAT THE MEMBER HAS STATED THAT HE OR SHE IS A HOMOSEXUAL OR BISEXUAL, OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT, UNLESS THERE IS A FURTHER FINDING, MADE AND APPROVED IN ACCORDANCE WITH PROCEDURES SET FORTH IN THE REGULATIONS, THAT THE MEMBER HAS DEMONSTRATED THAT HE OR SHE IS NOT A PERSON WHO ENGAGES IN, ATTEMPTS TO ENGAGE IN, HAS A PROPENSITY TO ENGAGE IN, OR INTENDS TO ENGAGE IN HOMOSEXUAL ACTS.

3.THAT THE MEMBER HAS MARRIED OR ATTEMPTED TO MARRY A PERSON KNOWN TO BE OF THE SAME BIOLOGICAL SEX. (3)

Clearly, the military is concerned about the sexual distraction. Allowing homosexuals to be open about their sexuality is definitely a possible problem, one that is not worth experimenting with.

Please note that another question that must be asked is can homosexuals control their sexuality? Whether or not marriage is the reason why, promiscuity among homosexuals is at an extraordinarily high rate, much higher than any other minority besides prostitution (which by the way is not good). This being so, the question that must be asked is if homosexuals pose more of a distraction (and possibly a threat) then women do in joining men’s divisions. I believe they do.


1. Nelson, Terri Spahr For Love of Country: Confronting Rape and Sexual Harassment in the U.S. Military
2. Bowden, Mark Black Hawk Down: A Story of Modern War, pg. 184-185.
3. http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/dontasklaw.html, Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue:
Text of the Policy, 1993 S. 1337; SEPTEMBER 16, 1993

[Brambila]

Women and men are separated, thus no distraction exists (except when men and women are in the same camps or barracks, which I disagree with). Men and women can be separated to successfully end sexual distractions. However, homosexuals cannot.

[Brambila]

The problem with your “trust” philosophy is that it doesn’t prevent these events from happening. It’s a given that after women are raped the men are punished and kicked out, but that’s not the issue. My problem with allowing homosexuals is that it gives the military a higher risk of committing these crimes. You can say all you want about how you trust that some people will be able to keep their sexual desires “in check”, but the problem is that it’s simply not possible. Unless you’re asexual, men WILL be distracted should women join their regiments, and similarly homosexuals will be distracted if they join the military. I want to prevent these crimes, and punishing offenders alone doesn’t solve anything.

Secondly, it isn’t a question about being distracted. I don’t think you understand the philosophy of the military- it isn’t just a job that you’re doing. Crimes committing in the military affects everyone. The entire basis of the military is teamwork, and if you’re going to allow these possibilities in the military, you’re affecting the surrounding soldiers, the objectives, and ultimately the security of our nation. If you honestly believe these issues can be solved by “Firing” soldiers who do misconduct, you’re kidding yourself.

[Brambila]

Nym, you still arn't getting this. Putting gays in the military is committing the same crime as putting women in men's divisions. The problem is that there is a huge distraction because you're with somebody you're sexually attracted to. I'm sorry, gays cannot have the same relationships with guys as straight guys do, as guys automatically become sexual object to them.

[Brambila]

I'm sorry, gays cannot have the same relationships with guys as straight guys do, as guys automatically become sexual object to them.

That's ridiculous - gays can't have guy friends whom they don't want sex with? That's like saying straights can't have women friends whom aren't sex objects, which is a blatant untruth. I understand your position on homosexuality, but come on, this is just plain dumb.

No it's not, it's completely correct. Even if you have no intention of having sex with a woman, men and women can't have the same relationships as straight men have with eachother. Think of a good friend of yours that is a woman. Would you use a public shower with her? Would you change with her? Come on, that's unnatural. If you honestly can say you can have the same relationship with a possible person of sexual pleasure as you can have with a person of no sexual pleasure, you're mistaken.

In addition to all of the above stated, one of the requirements of being in the military is to have good moral standards. Gays obviously don't have good moral standards.

[Brambila]

Please, John, don't be rude.

How do you propose we solve the locker room distraction?

Yes, I said that "don't ask; don't tell" was a good policy. The policy says that homosexuals who have had homosexual events or intend on having homosexual events, they cannot join the military. So no, it doesn't allow gays (being, practicing homosexuals), but it can technically allow homosexuals. If homosexuals are openly homosexual automatically that creates a distraction among the other soldiers and among the homosexual himself.

Yes, prostitution should be banned among soldiers as well. It's funny how morality has been changed from a code of laws that we follow to have a civilized society, to a basic law of self-preservation. There's a difference between morality and self-preservation.

[Brambila]

"...even if you consider homosexuality immoral, that doesn't mean practicing homosexuals can't be overall moral people..."

That is an inconsistency, a logical flaw. But before I go on, let me ask: What is your definition of immoral people, or living an immoral lifestyle.

For the locker room problem, I have another question: Should we then allow men and women to share locker rooms? For that matter, should we allow men and women in colleges and high schools to share locker rooms?

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Actually, they can find out many times. Now if the soldier wants a new life and so joins the military, alright, he can. But you can't argue that my support of the "Don't ask; Don't tell" policy is inconsistent with my views, as it's not.

I completely disagree with your prostitution view. It's absolutely horrible for their morale, as they will feel guilt and depression from knowing the fact that the person they slept with doesn't really care for them. Sexual occurances with prostitutes is an emotional lie, and a physical pleasure. Soldiers arn't going to desert if they don't have prostitutes. That's just silly.

[Brambila]

Fixed

[Brambila]

John, I didn't ask you what your definition of a moral was, I asked what your definition of an immoral lifestyle was. If you say that a guy who commits murderous crimes and yet is nice to his wife, you obviously don't understand what being immoral is all about. Are you living an immoral lifestyle if you murder people but are nice to your wife? No, because you're not living in murdering people. Homosexuals, however, are literally living an immoral lifestyle- they are having relations within their personal lives. An immoral lifestyle isn't just committing a single immoral action, but it is living in that iniquity. Gays are living in the iniquity of homosexuality, and therefore they don't live the military's requirement of moral stature. You are correct in stating that for instance honesty is important. However, it is imperative that one takes a phenomenological approach in discussing such matters, meaning, we must predict what could open up if we allow practicing and open homosexuals into the military. Firstly 21% of homosexuals suffer from physical abuse from their partners, compared to less than 8% of heterosexual men (1). This can be a huge threat within the military, as we have seen in the case of the Iraqi abuses. I would not be surprised if many of the US soldiers who committed those crimes were homosexuals. In a similar study of intimate violence within relationships, 15.4% of homosexual men have intimate violence in their relationship, compared to .05% of heterosexual married men (2). These statistics open up the possibility of serious crimes in the military. Why should we take this risk? Just “fire” then when they commit a crime?
 
What must be answered is the question of relativity. If you're a subjectivist, then we have another debate to start. But if you, like me, are an objectivist, then we can continue this discussion without touching the issue of morality too much.

Three locker rooms doesn’t solve the problem. Homosexuals will still be distracted, or distract others. If they go into the men’s shower room, they’ll be distracted. If they go into the unisex shower room, that would simply turn into a gay bathhouse. Finally, if they go into the women’s shower room, they will distract the women. Yes, this will effect the battlefield. Here’s a scenario: if a sergeant is leading his chalk in Baghdad and recently broke up with a member of his chalk, a private, don’t you think that private would have a difficult time obeying commands? This is exactly the reason why we separate women from men in the military.

” Leave it to the individual colleges(is there a law against this anyways?).

I’m asking you personally, none of this libertarianism . Do you think it’s immoral or can cause problems if men and women shower together? I think it can. Even post-adolescent people are attracted to the opposite sex (unless you’re gay); at least I hope most of them are! It would be odd if suddenly after the age of 24 men became asexual.

Without getting too much into the military prostitution debate, we must also understand that prostitution doesn’t just negatively affect the soldier, but also the prostitute. STDs are very high, and even condoms don’t defend against thousands of STDs out there. In addition, prostitution leads to children becoming prostitutes, and in Vietnam child prostitution was a huge problem. Today in Southeast Asia it’s a tremendous problem, especially in Thailand, where boys as young as 8 sell themselves as prostitutes.





1)   "Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence", U.S. Department of Justice: Office of Justice Programs (30)
2)   "Intimate Partner Violence," Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report (11)

[Brambila]

Opebo, actually, child prostitution is a huge industry in Thailand. I have friends+relatives who often go or live there, and they always come back asking for prayers about the child prostitution industry in Bangkok. It's not policed there well at all. As a matter of fact, San Francisco has had a problem with illegal prostitution and historically has had some child prostitution. In the 1960s, if I get the dates correctly, there was a huge child prostitution bust in San Francisco in the Castro district (which at that time was about half gay/half italian families, which explains where the children came from). Now we're not talking as bad as in Thailand with 8-year-olds, but there were plenty of teenagers. Even today, I know of a girl who is a prostitute and only 16 from a Socialogist I met who does studies on these kinds of activities.

John Dibble, I have a simple question I need you to answer before we can move on. At this current state, you havn't given me a clear answer: What is an example of an immoral lifestyle? If you can't answer that, then explain what the US Army means by a person living in good moral standards?

As for locker rooms, they arn't the only issue about homosexuals beign in the military. My point is, homosexuals cause distractions, and this is merely one example of how close the bondness gets between teammembers. Soldiers do NOT need emotional distractions!

[Brambila]

John, we obviously have disagreements now towards the definition of morality, so I can't really say we can get far in this debate unless we figure out if moral truth is absolute or if it's relative. Let me ask you- if the Afghanis believe it is morally acceptable to have sex with children, is that their culture, or is that a crime? Secondly, if one person personally believes that 1+1 is 3, does that make that person wrong, or does that simply mean the person has a difference in opinion? Finally, if the entire world followed that 1+1 is three, who would be right, the entire world, or yourself?

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I'm not so much concerned about the men being destracted, but more on the homosexual's distractions. Are they reliable? Women also make up a minority of the military's population, but we're not about to allow men and women to share showers, as that would cause a series of problems. Can we really trust the men and women in the armed forces if they are in sexual relationships part time? I don't think so. We can't prevent all emotional distraction, but we can keep it minimal.

Opebo, I think it's very sad that you don't acknowledge the problem in Thailand exists. How do you know first hand? Have you been to Thailand? Have you seen the situtation?

Source 1

Source 2

Source 3

"90,000 women, girls and boys are in prostitution"
("Study Probes Thai Child Prostitution", UPI, 28 July 1998, citing IPSR)

"12,000-18,000 children including 5,510 foreigners are in prostitution." ("Study Probes Thai Child Prostitution", UPI, 28 July 1998, citing IPSR)

Royal Thai site Source


A GROWING PROBLEM

Child prostitution is a growing problem worldwide. In Asia alone, according to experts on the subject, more than one million young boys and girls are engaged in commercial sexual activity. And indications are that in every part of the world the number of children being harmed in this way is growing. Child prostitutes are found in virtually every country, including the United States, France, United Kingdom, Germany and Japan. There is an apparent increasing demand, globally; part of it fed by the fear of AIDS and the naive belief that younger sex partners are free of disease.



San FranciscO:

Bid to stop S.F.s Child prostitution

All thanks to a simple google search. Not a problem? My ass.

Nym, you may have friends who have 100% platonic relationships, but that is extremely rare. Society today is trying to get rid of the difference between men and women, but the truth is that there is a huge difference, and that our mental chemistry differenciates based on our sexes or sexual attractions.

[Brambila]

Okay Opebo. I wont post anymore "propaganda" anymore even though I have friends to confirm this.  However, before I do, I have yet to see any evidence that there isn't a problem, and any sites that list this stuff as propaganda, even the government of Thailand admits it.

[Brambila]

Yes, it comes to a great surprise. Most governments try to hide their problems, not expose them. I find it very strange that a nation would throw out propaganda that there is a huge illegal prostitution ring in Thailand.... ri-ght.

[Brambila]

The truth is, child prostitution does exist. I had a family member who went to Bangkok's Sheraton hotel, and during the afternoon there was nothing to do. So he went to the front desk and asked what kind of things the hotel offered for entertainment. Now, he was thinking a pool, a gym, maybe a little tour of Bangkok, but the first thing that the front desk clerk brought out was a binder of child pornography, and asked him to "make his selection". The binder was child prostitution services, and the clerk was asking him to make his decision on which child to hire.

[Brambila]

Okay, Opebo.

[Brambila]

My relative has been to Thailand on many occasions, and knows the CEOs of several large American subsidiaries in Thailand. He is not only familiar with the corporate culture there, but has extensive relationships with the faculty and staff of St. John's University in Bangkok. I don't know if you know, but it's a highly prestigious school. He told me that Bangkok even by their own people is considered the "City of Sin". Let me clarify that when he said that a Sheraton employee showed him a cataloge of young children that this was not shown to him as an official service of the Sheraton. By the way, he also said that there are two Sheratons in Bangkok, and I know the one he was was on a river close to where the major temples are located. He knows Thailand well, as he has visited Thiland not only as a businessman but a tourist who has many friends in the region.

The other individual who told me about the situation in Bangkok is a visitor we had at my house who is a teacher at St. John's University at Bangkok. She not only told me about the problem with child prostitution, but also told me that there is a very serious problem with women prostitution who come from the villages all over THailand for oppertunities and find prostitution as a despirate solution for income. She explained that many of the prostitutes are found in bars in which they are placed behind a glass window each holding a number waiting to be called on by the patrons of the bar. She explaind that child prostitutes are usually marketed by teenagers and young adults in front of the major hotels. ALso the hotel consiers and tourists promoters often cater to the need by foreign tourists for child prostitutes. There's a Catholic religious order in the area known as Salesians who have an orphanage that specifically attempts to help child prostitutes from a very detrimental life. This is not an opinion, this is a fact, and you are dangerously deluding yourself and perhaps others of a grave and serious problem in Thailand and southeast asia in general (especially Vietnam). In fact, that woman told us that Vietnam has become very attractive for tourists from surrounding from Hong Kong and Singapore, looking for both child and adult prostitution. And this I know for a fact, as I have literally dozens of sources from the large Vietnamese community in the bay area, who constantly recieve news from Vietnam.

I can understand why you don't see the problem, though. I only recently found out about the huge prostitution problem in San Francisco.

[Brambila]

I certainly don't want to shower with gay people.

Here's a little secret, Philip. You have showered with gay guys--I guarantee it unless you've never showered outside of your home.

If they arn't open homosexuals, the chances of them practicing their sexuality are smaller. If they are open, they could care less whether they practice or not.