Impeachment Megathread Part 3

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^ The above exchange between a Democrat turned Republican and a Republican turned Democrat exemplifies the partisan realignment which Trump has contributed greatly to in recent years.

Yep, the discourse on this site used to be a lot better until Trump Derangement Syndrome turned a lot of our reasonable Republicans into raging, seething partisan cultists who will excuse ANY behavior for him and then gaslight us into thinking we're the lunatics. I mean, they will handwave ANYTHING away. I mean, a couple days ago Trump raved about how Democrats are "viscous, horrible people," and not a peep from anyone on the Right.

When Democratic politicians do something clearly wrong, the rank-and-file Democrats routinely condemn the action and focus on putting it in context, that it's not that bad in the grand scheme of things, etc. Take Bill Clinton's impeachment, or for a more recent example, the Katie Hill situation. Contrast that with Trump, whose backers DENY EVERYTHING every time. It's not "oh, Trump definitely crossed the line in Ukraine but it doesn't quite rise to the level of impeachment," it's "TRUMP CLEARLY DID NOTHING WRONG! NOTHING! AT ALL! AND EVIL DEMOCRATS WHO DESPISE AMERICA ARE JUST LYING ABOUT HIM!!!!!!" It's risen to cult level and it's disturbing.

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But ... Ken Starr said a few weeks ago that it was time for Republican Senators to pressure Trump to resign.

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https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1219698190129225728?ref_src=tw...

But... the transcript is one of the main thing that incriminates Trump. He's really going all in on psychological warfare on his cult...

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I mean, if there were ANY way that witnesses would help Trump's case, Republicans would want them called. Thus, the only possible conclusion is that Republican senators know that witnesses will sink Trump and they're desperately trying to prevent that.

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You and your Party Clowns would have done the same thing if Results were reversed and Hillary were President. Not only do you want the undo the 2016 Election but also the 2020 Election.

Outrageously wrong. Hillary would have been nearly-unanimously impeached by the House had she blackmailed Ukraine for dirt on a political rival. If she hadn't resigned by now, she would have virtually no support in the Democratic Party at all at this point. If you honestly disagree, you have a very poor grasp on how politics work in America.

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So if Trump can't be removed because it's overturning the American people, who ever could be impeached? Why haven't Republicans tried to amend the Constitution to remove the section about impeachment? 🤔🤔🤔

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Even if McConnell does call witnesses what do these Senate Democrats & House Democrats expect? Bolton is a REPUBLICAN. Yes, he might not like a lot of things Trump did & said but to think Bolton would literally stab his former boss in the back so that he could be removed from Office is really far-fetched. In what Universe do these Congressional Democrats (House & Senate) live in?

Wait, you acknowledge that Bolton's testimony might implicate Trump enough that he would be removed from office, but you just don't care? Wild.

To recap here are the possible arguments:

• Trump committed one of the most blatant impeachable offenses in American presidential history, and must be removed from office, regardless of the political consequences for whichever party. (the Democratic argument)
• Trump made a terrible error of judgment, but it does not rise to impeachment level. (No one is really making this argument.)
• Trump really is innocent, and there is evidence to back up this assertion. (No one is even attempting this argument.)
• DEMOCRATS ARE EVIL AND HATE AMERICA AND YOU!! FOR EVEN TRYING THIS!!!!1 (the Republican "argument")
• Trump is guilty, but who cares? I'm more concerned with beating the Democrats on the vote! (The "2016" argument?)

As I've posted many times, if Republicans could somehow argue #3, or even default to #2, I'd respect them so much more? Instead, they're just being disgraceful.

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C'mon! Give me a Break. Alan Dershowitz was on CNN a short while ago and said the Articles Dems put forward ain't "Impeachable". That's basically Point 2 you put forward here and I bet Kenneth Starr will do a similar thing making Senate Republicans more comfortable.

Dershowitz said Trump was in the wrong but not quite impeachment level? I haven't seen that, but if he really did, he's basically alone in that argument. I haven't seen anyone in the House or Senate say that, it's all just spitting venom at Democrats without addressing any of the allegations and certainly no agreement that Trump was even a little bit in the wrong.

And no, I am argueing that Bolton if called wouldn't say anything that hurts Trump.

Yeah I know, but the way you worded it implied that you think Bolton is going to stay silent and keep the damaging info to himself, not that there is nothing damaging he can say.

I agree with that argument - Bolton knows that Trump is guilty of impeachable offenses, but I doubt that he will spill the beans, and I doubt 20 Republicans will vote to convict he even he does. Both of those statements reflect very poorly on Bolton and Republicans.

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Again, you're talking around the point. You seem to agree that Bolton has damaging testimony for Trump, but you're only focusing on (and celebrating) that Republicans aren't going to be removing him, even if they hear it.

I think we all know that Republican senators will probably acquit Trump no matter what, despite never producing a shred of exculpatory evidence or even attempting an "OK, he was wrong, but not wrong enough"-style argument.

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Starr literally said that Trump is guilty and Republicans should pressure him to resign, just a few weeks ago. But who cares, Big Brother Trump will deny it and his cult will forget it.

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Excellent video as usual from The Legal Eagle. Great non-partisan analysis from an actual expert.

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• Trump committed one of the most blatant impeachable offenses in American presidential history, and must be removed from office, regardless of the political consequences for whichever party. (the Democratic argument)
• Trump made a terrible error of judgment, but it does not rise to impeachment level. (No one is really making this argument.)
• Trump really is innocent, and there is evidence to back up this assertion. (No one is even attempting this argument.)
• DEMOCRATS ARE EVIL AND HATE AMERICA AND YOU!! FOR EVEN TRYING THIS!!!!1 (the Republican "argument")
• Trump is guilty, but who cares? I'm more concerned with beating the Democrats on the vote! (The "2016" argument?)

Maybe I spoke to soon. Republicans are moving to option 5? The Senate is the more "mature" chamber after all.

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Impeachment very popular in a new Fox News poll
https://twitter.com/brianstelter/status/1221435448679157760?s=20

We have two parallel realities right now with impeachment polls. People opposed to removal insist that the polls are good for Trump and getting better.

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The FOX NEWS Poll has a big FLAW in it. The Dates are 19th to 22nd of January.
The I-Trail began on January 21st and the first big Day of the Democratic Case was January 22nd.

What do you expect here? Of Course Voters want to remove Trump when the constantly hearing Democratic Talking Points!

Just wait until the Trail is over, the entire Script will flip I think.

So first you acknowledge that Bolton's testimony would sink Trump (therefore it shouldn't be allowed), and now you acknowledge that Democratic arguments are strong enough to convince people.

Well OK I guess. It is consistent with your "Sure Trump is guilty, but who cares?" mindset.

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Bolton’s book has a conversation he had with Trump were Trump stats the aid is tied to the Biden probe
https://mobile.twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/1221568821879885824

This should be a bombshell, but Republicans have pretty much all admitted that Trump did everything he's accused of, they just don't care. Therefore, this probably changes nothing.

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Bolton also said he went to Barr with his concerns and Barr’s office is calling him a liar
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/john-bolton-went-to-bill-barr-with-concerns-about-giulianis-shadow-foreign-policy-in-ukraine-report/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Fine.  Call them both to testify.

Yes, if Republicans gave a damn about whether Trump is guilty they would call both. And by all means, be tough on both and if they can cast doubt on Bolton's testimony, so be it - I sure wouldn't put it past that guy to misrepresent what actually happened.

But we have to remember that Republicans aren't trying to prove Trump is innocent, nor are they trying to convince people that Trump's conduct was bad but not impeachment level (the Clinton argument). It's a whole party that simply doesn't care.

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https://twitter.com/DavidJollyFL/status/1221575780494381058?s=19

For those of you who don't recognize the name, this is a former Republican Congressman who was defeated for reelection in 2016.

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Well we basically have to call them both at witnesses to figure out who is right.

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Ken Starr is whining about how we are in an "Age of Impeachment" right now 🤔 🤔

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Also it's well sourced that Trump didn't care if Hunter were actually investigated or not, just that the announcement was made to hurt Joe's campaign. So that whole argument from the Trump side is a dud.

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Alan Dershowitz just KILLED the prosecution's case in one sentence.

DNA evidence is (even if there is some) is not conclusive. Period!

GAME OVER MS. CLARK

You couldn't read a science book, lousy Marcia!

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Here I was thinking that Donald Trump was interested in getting dirt on Joe Biden.

Ironically, the Democrats have dug it up all by themselves thanks to having this evidenced splashed all over an Impeachment Trial.

Biden was getting cozy jobs for his uneducated son in the Ukraine when Jr knew nothing about Natural Gas or it's economic discovery, development or delivery.

Turns out Obama and Biden were slipperier than Trump this whole time.

Boards of Directors usually have at least some members from outside the industry in order to prevent groupthink. Very ignorant argument.

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So I'm assuming this means McConnell will just allow witnesses now without a vote, to save face? Good I guess?

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https://mobile.twitter.com/mkraju/status/1222677793986830338
Rand’s hardon to out the WB shows you how dead the libertarian movement is ideologically wise

It's a totally bizarre and perverse fixation that Republicans have on the whistleblower, as if he's solely responsible for Trump's crimes. The identity of the person who called the police is not relevant in determining a defendant's guilt.

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No, I am not denying that. It may have indeed happened but I think it isn't impeachable. If we really put the bar that low every future President is going to be impeached. Do you really want that? Do you want Impeachment to be used as a weapon for every future President by either Political Party? I don't. It's too dangerous! You can bet if Biden is President and Republicans managed to win the House let's say in 2022 Joe could very well face Impeachment Charges because Republicans would want to demand payback because of what happened with Trump. That's why it needs to be ended as soon as possible.

If Joe Biden blackmails another country by tying foreign aid to a personal favor to help his election odds (remember, it's the second most impeachable offense in presidential history after the Trail of Tears - worse than Watergate and way way worse than violating the Tenure of Office Act or lying about a blowjob in an unrelated deposition), then yes, I would strongly support his impeachment and removal, and so would the rest of the Democratic Party.

Yes, I want that precedent establish that if you do something THIS bad, you get removed. It is horrifying that Republicans will probably establish the opposite precedent due to their Trump Derangement Syndrome.