NY: Convicted Felon Donald Trump!

[Badger]

Ask yourself this:  would the same amount of resources be devoted to this case if Trump wasn't a political candidate?  There's your answer. 

You mean if he wasn't running for president? Yes. Unquestionably. If anything his candidacy deters prosecution.

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Almost all indictments are this country are political in one way or another, Trump's not least of all, because prosecutors are elected, often partisan, politicians who run on platforms promising to indict or not indict specific categories of suspects or even specific categories of crimes. You'd think that the cavalcade of recent high-profile examples of this being abused would lead to some calls to change this, but apparently not.

No.  Just no.

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Almost all indictments in this country are political in one way or another, Trump's not least of all, because prosecutors are elected, often partisan, politicians who run on platforms promising to indict or not indict specific categories of suspects or even specific categories of crimes. You'd think that the cavalcade of recent high-profile examples of this being abused would lead to some calls to change this, but apparently not.

No.  Just no.

Okay, almost all indictments in parts of the country where DA races are high-profile ideological barn-burners.

Okay, with that far reaching caveat, probably/generally.

[Badger]

It's time to get back to the case at hand, after an interruption in the usual programming.

One major problem with the Bragg case is mixing and matching state and federal law. Using purported federal violations to extend the SOL for state violations causes considerable skepticism in elite legal circles. But now a new angle is the state bookkeeping fraud was to facilitate state tax fraud, state on state rather than state on federal.

The NYT article does not get very far in the weeds on this, so indulge me while I speculate a bit. Trump seemed to take a phony tax deduction by converting a non-deductible hush money payment into deductible legal services. Cohen converted a non-taxable reimbursement payment into pseudo taxable income for himself, and thus the gross up payment. The state might have ended up net with more tax revenue, but it was attended by fraud and involved switching taxpayers.

Normally a state would not be too motivated to pursue tax fraud where it made money, but nothing about this case is normal. Wheels within wheels within wheels. The new theory is confusingly pleaded, perhaps by design, but soon the prosecution will have to lay its cards on the table, and spill its guts: 

“What is going to happen now is that the prosecutors are obligated to disclose things in discovery,” he said. “Defense counsel will learn in discovery the nature of the elections laws violations and the tax issues that were raised by Mr. Bragg in his statement of facts.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/04/us/politics/trump-bookkeeping-fraud-taxes.html

Is the New York state statute of limitations for tax fraud longer than the 3 years for the feds?

https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/general/pub131.pdf

Come on Tori my man. I'm not lucky enough to have retired yet and still have to earn my daily quota of billable hours You can't expect me to find time to read all that for myself. Just spoon feed me the answer you lucky retired old barrister. 

[Badger]

Almost all indictments in this country are political in one way or another, Trump's not least of all, because prosecutors are elected, often partisan, politicians who run on platforms promising to indict or not indict specific categories of suspects or even specific categories of crimes. You'd think that the cavalcade of recent high-profile examples of this being abused would lead to some calls to change this, but apparently not.

No.  Just no.

Okay, almost all indictments in parts of the country where DA races are high-profile ideological barn-burners.

Okay, with that far reaching caveat, probably/generally.

The initial lack of the caveat is on me; I overestimated how much of the country has that dynamic in DA races (which is a bit embarrassing, frankly, because, as you probably know, I've proudly lived most of my life in the sorts of periurban-to-rural areas that tend not to). Thanks for the pushback.

One thing I really like about you is you are one poster who has a track record of being willing to admit when they've made an error, larger small, the latter in this case. That's so rare and precious for atlas.

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National Review FINALLY speaks out what many DeSantis, Haley Supporters and other Anti-Trump People are thinking: The Alvin Bragg Case is just the beginning of Trumps Legal Woes.

In a few months the Bragg Case will be considered the "Good Old Days for Trump". That's why nominating him in 2024 would be a complete malpractice.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/04/gop-beware-braggs-case-is-just-the-start-of-trumps-legal-jeopardy/

Fulton County will not only possibly indict Trump but his allies as well NYT Maggie Haberman is reporting.

Yeah, this is why I considered the recent is desantis's presidential bid dead thread and the constant stick a fork in him he's done refrain laughable. Yes, Trump has been more Teflon coated then almost any politician in modern history. But remember, his worst excesses came to light - think pussy gate - after he had already wrapped up the nomination, so the choices for such True Believers were to stick with Trump and project/ excuse his behavior however possible, or face president Hillary clinton.

Now though, Republicans have all the fascism of trump in a more electable package with Ron desantis. And I'm sorry ongoing indictments are a bridge too far for Republicans who want to win the White House and see that Trump will only drag them down in a way even he couldn't do so before. And considering the other contenders against DeSantis,  pffffft!  Lol!

[Badger]

Trump, Cohen Met in Oval Office to Go Over Finances, Indictment Says

Donald Trump allegedly met with his former lawyer, Michael Cohen, to discuss parts of their "hush money" scheme in the Oval Office, according to the recently unsealed Manhattan indictment.

Trump was officially arrested by the Manhattan District Attorney on Tuesday afternoon and arraigned on charges relating to district attorney Alvin Bragg's long-running investigation into his alleged involvement in the hush money plan. According to the newly unsealed indictment, Trump has been charged with 34 counts of falsifying business records in an attempt to conceal a repayment to his former lawyer, who paid two women to stay quiet about affairs they had with Trump in the lead-up to the 2016 election. This included $130,000 paid to adult film star Stormy Daniels.

Trump pleaded not guilty to all charges on Tuesday and is next scheduled to appear in court in early December as the case moves ahead. He has long denied that the affairs ever happened and dismissed Bragg's work as politically motivated. This is the first-ever criminal indictment of a former president in U.S. history.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-cohen-met-oval-office-finances-indictment-1792590

I keep seeing stuff like "the first-ever criminal indictment of a former president in U.S. history". Where was this same sense of history when Donald because the first President in U.S. history to violate the Emoluments clauses? The first President in U.S. history to openly run a criminal organization from the White House? The first President in U.S. history to commit treason and attempt a coup?

The shocking thing is not that he's been charged with crimes, but that it took so long.

He certainly not the first president to run a criminal Enterprise from within the Oval Office. And he's not the first to commit treason either, though arguably certainly first to attempt a coup (in this country of course).

[Badger]

Yeah it was him. Weissman thinks so too.

https://twitter.com/AWeissmann_/status/1648125684395433989

Then why TF is Bragg fighting this? Why TF is Jordan seeking this testimony? All jokes aside neither are imbeciles and must know how this is ultimately going to backfire on jordan/ help Bragg. That unless there's something significantly more to their expected testimony.

[Badger]

Trump prohibited from posting evidence in hush money case to social media, judge rules
In his ruling, Judge Juan Merchan largely sided with a request from the Manhattan district attorney's office regarding what Trump can publicly say about aspects of the case.

The New York state judge presiding over the criminal hush money case against Donald Trump issued an order Monday restricting the former president from posting about some evidence in the case on social media.

In his order, Judge Juan Merchan largely sided with the Manhattan district attorney by limiting what Trump can publicly disclose about new evidence from the prosecution before the case goes to trial.

Merchan's order said that anyone with access to the evidence being turned over to Trump's team from state prosecutors “shall not copy, disseminate or disclose” the material to third parties, including social media platforms, “without prior approval from the court."

It also singles out Trump, saying he is allowed to review sensitive "Limited Dissemination Materials" from prosecutors only in the presence of his lawyers, and "shall not be permitted to copy, photograph, transcribe, or otherwise independently possess the Limited Dissemination Materials."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-barred-posting-evidence-hush-money-case-social-media-rcna83444

Doesn't go so far as outright gag order which would be best, but at least it's a good start.

[Badger]

Hopefully the Justice Department pursues the Death Penalty against Trump. If there ever was a good case for the Espionage Act (or just straight up Treason), it's here.

Should delete this mate, we don’t want the feds raiding Atlas.

The feds would probably uncover a right wing terror plot amongst the blue avatars

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I hate Trump, but he doesn’t deserve the death penalty (no one does). Trump has already gotten to be the exception to so many things, he doesn’t deserve any more special treatment.

Yeah, I'm on record as being among the biggest Trump haters among many on this forum, and this is not a death penalty case.

[Badger]

If Trump even spends one day in prison for any of his crimes, then it would be one of the greatest things to happen in American history.

Hopefully, he serves at the very least a year in prison.

I predict it will be a race between whether Bureau of Prisons claims Trump after exhaustion of appeals, or the Grim Reaper does considering his age.

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The territory covered by the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida voted Biden 55.42% - Trump 43.80%.

But it only takes one you're out of 12 to hang the whole damn thing. Smith needs to investigate and question that jury panel so so close.

I know the indictment just dropped hours ago and it is probably grossly premature to say this, but from all I've read and from having done criminal law for almost three decades, my gut is telling me that as long as they can keep any hardcore MAGA heads off the jury pool, and by that I don't even mean all Trump voters, then Trump will go down.

[Badger]

If he agrees to drop out of the 2024 race, never run for any public office again, issue a public apology, and keeps his mouth completely shut for the rest of his life (in the public forum anyway), then I’d be okay with a pardon.

And if he breaks any of those agreements he gets arrested.

Then, sure

Technically speaking it would have to be a commutation rather than a pardon. That way the president could remove any imposed prison sentence and instead convert his sentence to supervised release, AKA probation. That way any violation agreement could then be enforced. A pardon means the case is done, period end of sentence.

[Badger]

Hmm, that I'm not sure about.

Nor i. Has there been any articles or other analysis whether the misdemeanor versions of these statutes are indeed lesser included offenses of the felony versions? That's usually the case, but not necessarily

[Badger]

Hmm, that I'm not sure about.

Nor i. Has there been any articles or other analysis whether the misdemeanor versions of these statutes are indeed lesser included offenses of the felony versions? That's usually the case, but not necessarily

That's a good question.

Actually I came back here to delete my prior post, as subsequent posts for the one I quoted made by Bruce Joel and others here answered that question. Irrelevant for counts 2 through 32 at minimum, and the subsequent actions demonstrates sufficient state of mind for a felony conviction on count one. If the jury agrees that is.

[Badger]

It's very refreshing to see a judge put up with none of Trump and his team's nonsense.

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Whatever it is, it is not election interference, because the election was over by the time Trump falsified his business records.

It doesn't matter. The payoff and silencing occurred before the election, when it could have made a difference in the election, and he presumably was planning at that time to later cover it up by falsifying his business records. It's an election interference case.

That is not a valid argument. The payoff and silencing are not crimes.

I realize you have spent months trying vainly to defend and minimize Trump's actions here against all evidence to the contrary, but did you not read Bruce Joel's post at the bottom of the preceding page directly quoting the statute? Serious question. I suggest you review it and reconsider your response.

[Badger]

Whatever it is, it is not election interference, because the election was over by the time Trump falsified his business records.

It doesn't matter. The payoff and silencing occurred before the election, when it could have made a difference in the election, and he presumably was planning at that time to later cover it up by falsifying his business records. It's an election interference case.

That is not a valid argument. The payoff and silencing are not crimes.

I realize you have spent months trying vainly to defend and minimize Trump's actions here against all evidence to the contrary, but did you not read Bruce Joel's post at the bottom of the preceding page directly quoting the statute? Serious question. I suggest you review it and reconsider your response.

I read everything and explained it in one of my following posts.
In order for this theory to be viable, the prosecution needs to prove that there was a conspiracy before the fact and that is going to be much more difficult than proving a cover up after the fact, which is straightforward.

Kindly specify where Within either the relevant statutes or New York case law there is support for that claim.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1786132874380333155

Of course, the gag order doesn't at all preclude him from testifying, but I have no doubt his base will believe this completely.

As multiple Atlas posters have proven repeatedly, his base is largely made up of abjectly gullible morons with an undeserved persecution complex.

[Badger]

Sleepy Don breaks his silence on sleeping through his trial.

Contrary to the FAKE NEWS MEDIA, I don’t fall asleep during the Crooked D.A.’s Witch Hunt, especially not today. I simply close my beautiful blue eyes, sometimes, listen intensely, and take it ALL in!!!

That has to be a joke. Tell me even that narcissistic POS didn't refer to his own eyes as his "beautiful blue eyes".

[Badger]

Any idea on the time frame of this trial? When is it expected to conclude? Will there be additional delay tactics?

Not sure what you mean by delay tactics, but I think the ballpark estimate was 6-8 weeks -- so we likely have at least two more weeks minimum.

By delay tactics, I mean filing frivolous motions, calling unnecessary witnesses, firing lawyers, etc. Anything to either prolong the trial or cause a mistrial

Got it.  Yeah I think six to eight weeks total was the ballpark estimate, but who knows?

I still don't believe this case ultimately ends up before the jury. Either Team Trump finds something that ties the judges hands and forces a mistrial or there's a plea down to misdemeanors.

Yeah, but you've been blathering on with that same line of bull inks without an ounce of basis for literally months now. So why don't you either bring something to the table rather than your random baseless speculation?

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/bradmossesq/status/1787443699456123142https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1787428730710720615

To be clear: *if* Trump just written a check directly to Stormy (the hypothetical presented by the listener), he could have done that legally under FECA *if* he later disclosed the payment accurately (which of course he never would have done since he was trying to hide it).

IRL, what happened was the money was advanced by Cohen.  That made what happened *both* an illegal contribution (by Cohen over the legal limit) and a disclosure violation (failure to disclose the Cohen illegal contribution and the failure to disclose the reimbursement), which was a crime for which Cohen served federal prison time.

And that makes the falsification of business records a felony under New York law.

So, maybe it's my lack of knowledge about New York law or federal election law in general, but do I understand this to mean if that perennial skin Flint Trump had just cried open his wallet, written a check to Cohen, and Cohen had written a check to Daniel's, and created some paper trail trying to claim that it was to spare melania's feelings, he likely couldn't have or wouldn't have been charged with anything in this case?

[Badger]

My understanding is that if there are more violations, Merchan can jail Trump for a short span, i.e. overnight, to demonstrate that he's serious, and then leave additional jail time as an option should more violations continue.

For a finding of contempt, the judge can put him behind bars indefinitely. There is no set time that the judge has to hold to, it's really in the judge's discretion. But you would have to imagine that if the judge takes this step against trump, it is likely just for an overnight to start.

There's a 30 day-per-violation cap for NY criminal contempt alongside the $1K/violation fine cap.

Correct. The type of indefinite contempt laws Illiniwek referenced are for when Witnesses refuse to testify under court order or the like and can be jailed indefinitely until they yield and take the stand. Not sure what New York's law is about that, but the 30-day / $1,000 maximum penalty here is what applies.

IMHO, what Merchan should have done here was to impose both the $1,000 fine he did as well as the maximum 30-day jail sentence, but suspend the jail sentence and allow him to purge that portion of the contempt- not the fine- on the simple condition he not have any further violations for the duration of this trial or however long afterwards if at all the gag order can be extended. Make it explicitly clear that that 30-day suspended sentence can be imposed PLUS any additional maximum 30-day sentence for future violations. At that point Trump can argue a lot less effectively - outside of his personality Cult of course- that being incarcerated was for anything less than being given repeated non-stop warnings which he refused to adhere to.

[Badger]

Well the goal isn't just to get him on anything. He (allegedly) broke the law to illegally influence the election and that is a crime worth prosecting, for the deterrent effect if nothing else. Who cares if it's technically illegal that he cheated on his wife?

My God, you are incredibly dense. Surprised you don't have a red avatar.

You could have and should have just stopped here in formulating your "argument".