Yes, heavy metal music did corrupt youth and spread a bad message!

[Badger]

It's totally awesome when red's hipster Christianity and Mania for emo music collide and turn him into as bad a blue nose as any right wing socon,  and he doesn't even notice the incongruity

BRTD: Showing Atlas that "liberal" is not synonymous with "open minded" since 2003.

[Badger]

OK also a serious question here:

WHERE ARE THE BREAKDOWNS IN IRON MAIDEN SONGS?

Like do they have even a single song where it gets slow in the middle and the gradually builds up to the breakdown where singer just repeats the same thing twice or three times in a row for the crowd to scream along to and then do a really brutal mosh part? There's bands with WAY less songs than they have that have like half of their songs like that lol. And they don't have a single one!

 No music without breakdowns is valid! This is uncompletely true fact! Mozart didn't have them! The Beatles didn't! Hank Williams didn't!  Muddy Waters didn't!

LOL! At meant you've now being honest that your railing  Against  Heavy metal It has nothing to do with so called "misogyny ",  And per usual just simply simply a Mania about your own personal taste being elevated to a religious fervor.

You are trying to rail on about iron maiden who songs discussed war, historical events, science fiction almost come out cetera,  But not a single song I can think of having to do with sex, misogynistically or otherwise. Ditto for Metallica and numerous other heavy metal groups I could name. But out of your ignorance of the genre you cherry pick some near Unheard of song by Motley crew that was never even released as a b side to a single, Is plus a couple of almost unheard of bands band as an attempt to rather lamely label an entire genre.

Seriously Tipler, give it a rest.

[Badger]

OK also a serious question here:

WHERE ARE THE BREAKDOWNS IN IRON MAIDEN SONGS?

Like do they have even a single song where it gets slow in the middle and the gradually builds up to the breakdown where singer just repeats the same thing twice or three times in a row for the crowd to scream along to and then do a really brutal mosh part? There's bands with WAY less songs than they have that have like half of their songs like that lol. And they don't have a single one!

The day Iron Maiden ever does that in one of their songs is the day I burn all of my Iron Maiden stuff and spend the rest of my life denying I ever liked them.

Also mosh pits sound really dangerous. It's hard to think of something that seems less fun.

Mosh pits are actually fun and tough to get hurt much in.

The problem is when one becomes such a cultural lemming that they become largely necessary to enjoy the music.

[Badger]

It's totally awesome when red's hipster Christianity and Mania for emo music collide and turn him into as bad a blue nose as any right wing socon,  and he doesn't even notice the incongruity

BRTD: Showing Atlas that "liberal" is not synonymous with "open minded" since 2003.

There's always been a huge divide on the left in terms of free speech and morality policing. Many liberals have always had a nanny-state tendency in them. Liberal attempts to censor Gone with the Wind in film schools and on television date back well over half a century if not longer, to cite one example. This kind of whiny, "think of the children!" art policing has been part of a certain segment of the left for way longer than the woke brigade of today or Tipper Gore of yesterday.

But that's definitely not me. I just don't like heavy metal music.

And I don't like emo music, but I'm not partisan enough to align myself with Jerry Falwell and start believing the stereotypes about the music promoting self harm, like you're doing with metal.

And I never said emo fans don't care about the music. I said you're a bad ambassador for your favorite genre who makes it sound like musical quality should be measured by moshpit activities that sound like rejected WWF finishing moves.

I have no beef with the emo genre. It's not my cup of tea, so I don't listen to it and I don't insult the musicians themselves. I have a beef with you being an obnoxious hack.

That's weird because you keep dumping on it and calling it the music of teenagers on MySpace and that it promotes suicide which is a RIDICULOUS accusation that real fans of it hate that stuff (funnily enough you have given a PERFECT analogy earlier in this thread by dumping on hair metal and saying it's not really metal and most metal fans hate it....I've even heard the hair metal analogy before applied to those bands from emo fans) and most of the genre's best work predates MySpace. Like where was MySpace in 1985?

 Is it worth pointing out here that you are taking extreme fringe and largely unpopular//nobody songs and groups to try to prove your point about azjandra that you are 99% ignorant of? I mean you've got more than a little bit of  Is a pot and kettle thing going here.

[Badger]

It's totally awesome when red's hipster Christianity and Mania for emo music collide and turn him into as bad a blue nose as any right wing socon,  and he doesn't even notice the incongruity

BRTD: Showing Atlas that "liberal" is not synonymous with "open minded" since 2003.

There's always been a huge divide on the left in terms of free speech and morality policing. Many liberals have always had a nanny-state tendency in them. Liberal attempts to censor Gone with the Wind in film schools and on television date back well over half a century if not longer, to cite one example. This kind of whiny, "think of the children!" art policing has been part of a certain segment of the left for way longer than the woke brigade of today or Tipper Gore of yesterday.

But that's definitely not me. I just don't like heavy metal music.

And I don't like emo music, but I'm not partisan enough to align myself with Jerry Falwell and start believing the stereotypes about the music promoting self harm, like you're doing with metal.

And I never said emo fans don't care about the music. I said you're a bad ambassador for your favorite genre who makes it sound like musical quality should be measured by moshpit activities that sound like rejected WWF finishing moves.

I have no beef with the emo genre. It's not my cup of tea, so I don't listen to it and I don't insult the musicians themselves. I have a beef with you being an obnoxious hack.

That's weird because you keep dumping on it and calling it the music of teenagers on MySpace and that it promotes suicide which is a RIDICULOUS accusation that real fans of it hate that stuff (funnily enough you have given a PERFECT analogy earlier in this thread by dumping on hair metal and saying it's not really metal and most metal fans hate it....I've even heard the hair metal analogy before applied to those bands from emo fans) and most of the genre's best work predates MySpace. Like where was MySpace in 1985?

 Is it worth pointing out here that you are taking extreme fringe and largely unpopular//nobody songs and groups to try to prove your point about azjandra that you are 99% ignorant of? I mean you've got more than a little bit of  Is a pot and kettle thing going here.

SUNNY DAY REAL ESTATE is an unpopular nobody band?!

Dude.

(Also "azjandra", lol, I have no clue what that is.)

 1st off, in the big picture kind of yes. Hate to break it to you, but they are kind of also rans compared  To bands that sell out arenas. I'm not gonna say that that's a major useful quality, but but they are definitely  Is the team in terms of overall popularity outside your rather narrow genre's.

More to the point, you completely missed my point. You took some unknown song from. Motley Crue than 95% of self des ribed fans wouldn't recognize, some Swedish death metal band known pretty much only for that suicide controversy and have few fans before or after, plus some largely unknown band (Lambgod or whatever?) to try labeling an entire genre you k ow basically nothing about.

 I will repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread. The fact that you readily align yourself with folks like tipper Gore and Jerry falwell to try to "prove" The validity of your own narrow musical taste is telling, and frankly just reflective of self absorption of taste cr9ssing the l8ne into narrow mindedness.

"The music isn't good unless there's a mosh put and people are wearing t-shirts of bands I like". Seriously dude? I couldn’t write something this foolish sounding as a parody.

[Badger]

The thing is I just don't like those songs. Because they aren't emo, hardcore, pop-punk, orgcore (I consider this pop-punk but not everyone does), post-hardcore, melodic metalcore, grindcore, powerviolence, screamo, post-rock, certain types of alternative and indie rock or Bob Dylan. And that's basically the entire set of music that I like.

Was it that hard to say that? Because you started off with "Pat Robertson was right! It's the Devil's music!" then it was "I can't mosh to it and Bruce Dickinson can't sing" then it was "there's no twink ballads or screaming". There is nothing wrong with not liking metal, or any genre. I don't like emo, hardcore, or really anything that stems from punk, but I don't put down the music when it's not for me anyway. You instead took three pages of disparaging and misrepresenting a genre you know nothing about, starting with a false pretense that you probably don't even believe just to say the innocent, honest statement, that you don't like heavy metal.

Subculture rivalries.

 "rivalry" assumes that 1 subculture gives a sh**t about the other. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of metal heads don't give a rat's ass enough to care, let alone disparage, groups like Sunny day real estate, It's setera et cetera et cetera et cetera.

[Badger]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song.

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

OK, but they're different genres that appeal to completely different audiences with different sensibilities. What's so hard to grasp about that? Why are you trying to argue this? Do you seriously not see the irony between you saying "man, I just don't like metal because it's not hardcore and emo, also metalheads were dicks to us" on one hand and, on the other hand, saying "why don't prog fans like hardcore? It can't be because it's not prog! And why would they still care about punks being dicks to prog fans and musicians?"

Of course. I'm just pointing out it's kind of laughable to dump on it because the Sex Pistols were so simplistic or whatever.

Even a "moshcore" song like this is arguably far more complex than Iron Maiden:

Maiden isn't a prog band. Why do you keep bringing then up when you're talking about prog?

And it's not just the simplicity of the early punk bands, although yes, that was and is a part of it. Remember that these bands would hold up banners and wear t-shirts saying "Pink Floyd sucks", talking about how those Charterhouse boys were taking rock and roll away from the working man, and having the press side with punk at every turn over prog (while punk got got to keep calling itself anti-establishment). There has never in the history of popular music, to my knowledge, been an assault from one genre towards another quite like punk dealt towards prog in the 70s. And it was the musicians, not just the fans.

Also remember that, unlike metal, prog isn't very transgenrational. The average prog fan was is an over-55 British person who liked it in the 70s and likes it now; of course they're not going to listen to underground 90s scenes that descended from the descendents of their most hated genre.

Ultimately, though, these are very very different genres. Far more different than even metal and punk/hardcore are from each other. Of course nobody is taking listening to Thick As A Brick and [insert Knocked Loose album here] back to back.

Funny, my dad has prog records. He was playing a bunch one night and he put on a Rick Wakeman one...I just said it was really weird. (Also I kind of love the irony in that I'm the one my parents had to consult when they wanted to buy a new turntable to listen to all of their vinyl that was released before I was born, LOL.)

I was mostly just addressing your point about being hostile to punk due to subculture rivalries. BTW I never even knew of that "Pink Floyd sucks" thing. My experience begins about 20 years ago when metalheads were so hostile to the hardcore kids and things like Friends Stand United were despised by metalheads.

If you're trying to trudge up the "metal is right wing and full of toxic masculinity" trope punks say about metal, it's not true. Yes, there's lots of problematic aspects of metal and the genre's community that, especially as a queer leftist woman, I've seen firsthand, but there's a lot of that in punk to, and unlike you, I don't pretend my genre is a utopia. Punk isn't a utopia either. Dead Kennedys wouldn't have had to tell Nazi Punks to f off if they're weren't so many nazi punks.

Anyway, metal music has always been left wing. Sabbath's most popular album was Vietnam War protest album. 80s thrash was all about war and religion. Maiden too. Yeah, there's a lot meaningless "blah blah blah DEATH blah blah DRAGONS blah SATAN" too, but with the exception of black metal, whenever metal gets serious, which is often, it's left wing. And the masculinity of it, from the leather and denim to the subject matter, has always been on a spectrum between tongue-in-cheek and a cover for a something deeper, i.e., these macho manly men having feelings too. Take Fade to Black, which has already been mentioned, for instance; that's the most sensitive, authentic  song depicting suicidal thoughts I've ever heard. Or another Metallica song, Master of Puppets, about Hetfield's addictions, later elaborated on Load and St. Anger. Or Megadeth, problematic as Mustaine's lyrics can be sometimes, especially recently, the man pours it all on his sleeve. Or Black Sabbath's changes, then most emotional breakup song you'll ever hear.or literally anything Chuck Schuldiner ever wrote. These aren't obscure underground bands; these are the ambassadors, the inner circle Hall of Famers of heavy metal. The macho man stuff is a cover and always has been.

I prefer metal musicians to metal fans every day of the week. The chuddiness is higher concentrated in fans than in the bands. But I'm in it for the music, and I'll defend the music any day of the week.

Yeah I know of the Nazi punks but again that's an ancient scene. I've never heard of a Nazi melodic hardcore band or Nazi emo band.

And if that sort of stuff is so friendly then why do no metal bands or metal records have them?

Punk has a MUCH stronger history of having Nazi subculture, albeit a tiny minority, than metal.

[Badger]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song.

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

OK, but they're different genres that appeal to completely different audiences with different sensibilities. What's so hard to grasp about that? Why are you trying to argue this? Do you seriously not see the irony between you saying "man, I just don't like metal because it's not hardcore and emo, also metalheads were dicks to us" on one hand and, on the other hand, saying "why don't prog fans like hardcore? It can't be because it's not prog! And why would they still care about punks being dicks to prog fans and musicians?"

Of course. I'm just pointing out it's kind of laughable to dump on it because the Sex Pistols were so simplistic or whatever.

Even a "moshcore" song like this is arguably far more complex than Iron Maiden:

Maiden isn't a prog band. Why do you keep bringing then up when you're talking about prog?

And it's not just the simplicity of the early punk bands, although yes, that was and is a part of it. Remember that these bands would hold up banners and wear t-shirts saying "Pink Floyd sucks", talking about how those Charterhouse boys were taking rock and roll away from the working man, and having the press side with punk at every turn over prog (while punk got got to keep calling itself anti-establishment). There has never in the history of popular music, to my knowledge, been an assault from one genre towards another quite like punk dealt towards prog in the 70s. And it was the musicians, not just the fans.

Also remember that, unlike metal, prog isn't very transgenrational. The average prog fan was is an over-55 British person who liked it in the 70s and likes it now; of course they're not going to listen to underground 90s scenes that descended from the descendents of their most hated genre.

Ultimately, though, these are very very different genres. Far more different than even metal and punk/hardcore are from each other. Of course nobody is taking listening to Thick As A Brick and [insert Knocked Loose album here] back to back.

Funny, my dad has prog records. He was playing a bunch one night and he put on a Rick Wakeman one...I just said it was really weird. (Also I kind of love the irony in that I'm the one my parents had to consult when they wanted to buy a new turntable to listen to all of their vinyl that was released before I was born, LOL.)

I was mostly just addressing your point about being hostile to punk due to subculture rivalries. BTW I never even knew of that "Pink Floyd sucks" thing. My experience begins about 20 years ago when metalheads were so hostile to the hardcore kids and things like Friends Stand United were despised by metalheads.

If you're trying to trudge up the "metal is right wing and full of toxic masculinity" trope punks say about metal, it's not true. Yes, there's lots of problematic aspects of metal and the genre's community that, especially as a queer leftist woman, I've seen firsthand, but there's a lot of that in punk to, and unlike you, I don't pretend my genre is a utopia. Punk isn't a utopia either. Dead Kennedys wouldn't have had to tell Nazi Punks to f off if they're weren't so many nazi punks.

Anyway, metal music has always been left wing. Sabbath's most popular album was Vietnam War protest album. 80s thrash was all about war and religion. Maiden too. Yeah, there's a lot meaningless "blah blah blah DEATH blah blah DRAGONS blah SATAN" too, but with the exception of black metal, whenever metal gets serious, which is often, it's left wing. And the masculinity of it, from the leather and denim to the subject matter, has always been on a spectrum between tongue-in-cheek and a cover for a something deeper, i.e., these macho manly men having feelings too. Take Fade to Black, which has already been mentioned, for instance; that's the most sensitive, authentic  song depicting suicidal thoughts I've ever heard. Or another Metallica song, Master of Puppets, about Hetfield's addictions, later elaborated on Load and St. Anger. Or Megadeth, problematic as Mustaine's lyrics can be sometimes, especially recently, the man pours it all on his sleeve. Or Black Sabbath's changes, then most emotional breakup song you'll ever hear.or literally anything Chuck Schuldiner ever wrote. These aren't obscure underground bands; these are the ambassadors, the inner circle Hall of Famers of heavy metal. The macho man stuff is a cover and always has been.

I prefer metal musicians to metal fans every day of the week. The chuddiness is higher concentrated in fans than in the bands. But I'm in it for the music, and I'll defend the music any day of the week.

Yeah I know of the Nazi punks but again that's an ancient scene. I've never heard of a Nazi melodic hardcore band or Nazi emo band.

And if that sort of stuff is so friendly then why do no metal bands or metal records have them?

Punk has a MUCH stronger history of having Nazi subculture, albeit a tiny minority, than metal.

But not melodic hardcore or emo.

But both genres have their direct roots in punk.

I'm not saying that melodic hardcore or emo have a Nazi subculture. I'm saying it's ridiculous and fundamentally incorrect  to label either as having a significant  presence based on such tenuous connections.

[Badger]

I will repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread. The fact that you readily align yourself with folks like tipper Gore and Jerry falwell to try to "prove" The validity of your own narrow musical taste is telling, and frankly just reflective of self absorption of taste cr9ssing the l8ne into narrow mindedness.

First they came for heavy metal music, and I didn't speak up because I'm not a metalhead.
Then they came for the gangsta rap and I didn't speak up because I don't like any rap at all.
Then they came for the mall (not) "emo" and I didn't speak up because it was just stupid poser sh!t anyway.
Then they didn't come for real emo or melodic hardcore because it's really niche stuff that such people were never aware of and thus I never had to worry about my musical tastes coming under threat and I lived happily ever after.

...

Thank you (both) for proving my point.