France General Discussion

[Antonio the Sixth]

I will try to listen or read him as much as possible. I feer I can't see I-télé (actually maybe I still don't even have any french TV access), but fair enough, I've not bought a Figaro since some time : he has a column there, isn't it ?
Anyways, don't be so sure that I will change my mind. I already said that I didn't discussed the fact he was intelligent, so please don't start saying I'm a bolshevik.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I will try to listen or read him as much as possible. I feer I can't see I-télé (actually maybe I still don't even have any french TV access), but fair enough, I've not bought a Figaro since some time : he has a column there, isn't it ?
Anyways, don't be so sure that I will change my mind. I already said that I didn't discussed the fact he was intelligent, so please don't start saying I'm a bolshevik.

Well, you just seemed keeping saying that no matter he was intelligent, he was insane. The bolchevik comment was because it seems to me it was common in USSR or regimes like that to say that someone you disagree with is insane, so don't use this bad tricks as well, especially if you haven't seen much of him. Good you'll try to before speaking now.

I know about him denouncing "denial of races", and warning against the "feminization of the society" and abortion that is undermining pop growth. This and some more stuff led me to think what I think, and I won't change my mind without a reason. Once again, the way he's able to argument (that, fair enough, makes him intelligent) doesn't make him sane. I'll read, and maybe change my mind if you're right.
But I maintain everything I said.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If I can watch I-télé in Ottawa, anybody can, really.

It all depends of the type of subscription you have. Sincerely, I understand nothing to TV systems, etc. It's my father who manages all this, and he's more interested to having Italian channels.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If I can watch I-télé in Ottawa, anybody can, really.

It all depends of the type of subscription you have. Sincerely, I understand nothing to TV systems, etc. It's my father who manages all this, and he's more interested to having Italian channels.

I watch it on the interwebs.

Oh, right. Could you post a link ? I'll probably have a look later.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yay, Besson speaking about values...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also, please Ben and Fab repeat that Zemmour "is not a nutjob".

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also, please Ben and Fab repeat that Zemmour "is not a nutjob".

Oh, something new?

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=zemmour+trafiquants+arabes+noirs

Yeah, didn't you knew that most of trafficants were blacks and arabs ? Thanks to Zemmour's deep socio-ethnical analysis, this truth is now reinstated.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Haha, yes, the stuff was on Canal+ more than one week ago, maybe 2. That's typically what I mean with him, he can analyze stuffs pretty well, and finish on totally biased conclusions, and as everybody doesn't care to debate the conclusion and just jump on his words with 'RACIST RACIST!!!', the debate is counter-productive, you create your devil. Here, yes, probably most of drug traffickers are Arab/Black, and Zemmour stops here, and that's the problem, what he forgets to say is that that would be true (in case it effectively is, but I would think it is) because in France by far most of people who live in bad social conditions are Arab/Black, then he may say a truth, but in a biased manner. The problem not being ethnic but social, and if most of people in bad social conditions are Arab/Black it is, not only but certainly in big part, because of the discriminations they have to submit in this country and that make them remain in the low part of the scale. And that isn't sexy in his mind, since he still dreams on that universalist France that gives a chance to anybody abide to the few rules of its universalism, universalism of which the values want to be more important than those of other cultural communities within the national one. Ya know, like you he fights 'communautarisme'. Then, instead of admitting that France has some problems to very well integrate these populations because of cultural and ethnical reasons, then they have more chances to remain in the low social levels of the society, he stops at 'Drug traffickers in France are Arabs and Blacks', maybe true, but...

Yah, he forgets to say all of this, but, this is not being a 'nutjob', this is being biased, and if someone would have the good idea to expose him arguments in a correct way instead of 'you racist!', maybe a debate with him would go further, since the guy is very able to debate.

We haven't a Rush Limbaugh in France, far off, then don't create one, don't create your devil because it's too hard to be fair with someone you don't like. You being a general one, 'vous', those who can't go over epidermic reactions. Because since the guy says a kind of truth, but in a biased manner, people who hear this, and who live this, would think he is right, and by stupidly slapping him, you slap these people, and when you slap some people afraid, in psychological insecurity, you rarely obtain positive results...

Sorry, but no. I'd like you to stop saying that I call him a nutjob because I disagree with him. There are many people I disagree with, who aren't nutjobs. Thanks.

Saying that "most of trafficants are blacks and arabs" is not only a "biased conclusion" : it's a retarded statement. It may be true as well (we don't have ethnical statistics in France, fortunately), but even if it was, it would mean nothing. Unless you want to demonstrate something precise : that arabs and blacks are the main cause of troubles, and criminality in France, and thus that they had to be ousted.
I don't know whether or not Zemmour is racist or not, and I don't really care. What is sure is that his statement was. Not a traditional "basic" racism like "OMG STRANGERZ R EVUL !" but a more elaborate rhetoric, based on the idea that France is threatened by the invasion of a population whose values are "uncompatible" with the "eternal France". Here is what Zemmour and all his nutjob friends are claiming to everybody. Some of them, like Zemmour, formulate intelligent reasonment to arrive at this silly point. That's why I almost fainted when I read that zemmour was a republican universalist fighting against communautarisme... Elle est bien bonne ! Zemmour is nothing else than a communautariste himself. He defends what he consider as "his" community, i.e. "le corps traditionnel français" (comme dirait l'autre). I.e the white, christian "français de souche" or at least those with european origins. This is just the corollary of the communautarisme of the suburbs, each one completing the other.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, you may have seen that I don't agree with him, I was just saying he was sane, but biased, he prefers to say 'Arabs/Blacks don't want to be part of the society' rather than 'France don't want to them to be part of it'. Historically seems that first discrimination toward these populations came from French (jobs/accommodations for the main part), and then these people feeling rejected now they exclude themselves from the society, and defiance between people from French/Euro roots and others grow and grow and grow. And yes, step by step we're with 2 cultural communities the French/Euro one, and others. But, about Zemmour, he's just biased, nothing more, he is by no means a nutjob. Mixing that 2 notions are unfair and help nobody. And yes, he's a typical product of the French Republican Model, but maybe you've to listen/read to him more before jumping on some net buzzs.

Yes, that's probably something like that. But such vision has nothing to do with republican universalism. If you consider that "arabs/blacks refuse integration", it means that you consider arabs and blacks as a separate and uniform community. For a real republican universalist, the mere nothion of "the arabs and the blacks" is meaningless, because there is no community except the human (or, in the case of traditional republicanism, the french). In another "biased conclusion", he declared that he believed in the existence of races (and that the current society was "denying" such evidence). This vision is definitely uncompatible with republican universalism, uncompatible with any form of humanism.
I certainly don't know Zemmour's writings as you and Fab do. But what I heard him say is worth of a nutjob. Obviously, he has certainly said more meaningful things, and I don't doubt he is intelligent. Still, his "petites phrases", even if he does just for the sake of provoking, make him a nutjob.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, about races, the racial question means nothing itself, it all depends what you put under that notion. If that's purely something physical then yes, you can identify physical types, it's up to you to call it races or not, maybe the word is too close of something referring to animals, at least for us French, and we have a problem with that, dunno, I'm not a fan of the use of the word for humans as well, but I can understand its use in this context. I don' think he tries to use it to say that there are different 'specie' of human, I think he'd merely speak physics/ethnies. Also, other countries have no problem to use it apparently, US for example.

Oh no, now they will again say that I'm a stupid little frenchie prejudiced against americans !
Once again, I can't speak for him. But the use of such vocable (in France) can't not be intentional. When you want to speak of this sort of things in a neutral way, you use "ethnical origin" or something like that. Obviously, I don't doubt that it was mostly a will of provoking rather than real racism. But still, it's a pretty depressing comment.

[Antonio the Sixth]

My comment? Wasn't meant to be offensive.

No, I was speaking about Zemmour's statement on races !
What did you think ?

[Antonio the Sixth]

My comment? Wasn't meant to be offensive.

No, I was speaking about Zemmour's statement on races !
What did you think ?

Haha, wasn't sure. No problem either way.

Ok, I probably should have formulated it otherwise.

anyways, it seems that we could finally reach an agreement on this topic. Let's just say that Zemmour sometimes acts like a nutjob, and that's the big problem I have with him.

And since you speak about politically uncorrectness, I noticed Fab's comment about how he's tired by the "bien-pensance", and it's funny because my thought is the exact opposite. I'm fed up by political uncorrectness. Or more precisely by populist nutjobs (or people who act like nutjobs ) who pretend to reveal a truth that everybody knows but nobody says because it's "politically uncorrect". It's really a French particularity : the better way to get popular is saying something retarded (but presented like a common sense), then when people start reacting, shouting that you are a victim of the "bien-pensants" and that they want to censor you. Sure, since you don't please the evil mediatico-ideological conspiracy, they are trying to demonize you ! It always works, so everybody does that. Sarkozy did, Le Pen did, Besancenot did, Frêche did, Hortefeux did, Zemmour did, many left-wingers did about the European Constitution, Marianne also does repeatedly... Being "politically uncorrect" is a national sport here. No matter how ridiculous, prejudiced, groundless, populist or obnoxious you comment is : just explain that it's politically uncorrect and everybody will love you ! We discussed about moderate heroism once : maybe a reason why I have some sympathy for moderate heroes is because in France we know the opposite problem.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Héhé, not sure it is so French, seems to me it's more relative to human beings, though yes, we've a kind of common 'bien-pensence' here that may encourage it, but anyways, it's up to the 'actual bien-pensants' to show that they 'actually' have the 'right' thoughts, if they can't debate but just shout 'bad! bad!' that's a problem. Problem is on both sides, provokers on one side and bien-pensants with contempt toward those who don't think like them on the other side. Ultimately no one can pretend to the 'right' thought then it's up to anyone to debate, I think it could be enough easy to fool Zemmour in a debate, but for it people have to...debate.

Yeah, I actually 100% agree with that. Even though I can understand the fatigue of "bien-pensants". It can become really annoying to keep arguing with some people. Obviously some don't even try to...

[Antonio the Sixth]

And BTW, Bucchini elected president of the Corse Assembly ? Looks like a surprise.

[Antonio the Sixth]

And BTW, Bucchini elected president of the Corse Assembly ? Looks like a surprise.

How is it surprising? It was part of the deal made by the lefties. Giacobbi gets the executive.

Oh yeah, I see. I just thought there had been some weird compromise with nationalists, but I saw that he actually just got a plurality of votes (the left's 24).
So, no deal. Looks like it will be a hard region to govern...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Damn, you really like Ségo.

Well, one more or less contenders in the PS... The only thing that matters to me is whether Sarkozy is reelected or not. And as of now the odds seem ton be decreasing (though I still tend to think than he is anything but done).

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, Sarkozy will undoubtedly run, and probably all the self-calling "challengers" (except Villepin, but nobody cares) will end up rallying him as it happened in 2007. It's how the UMP works, it's the only way it can work (and it's also its strength).

[Antonio the Sixth]

Aubry catching up with DSK and Royal catching up with Aubry... Very worrying.

[Antonio the Sixth]

French employees acting erratically and borderline stupidly when laid off isn't news.

It's just a little minority that does such things.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Apparently a bunch of UMP deputies are fearing for their seats in 2012, to the point that around 200 deputies are pushing for electoral reform which would make runoff rules for legislative elections identical to those for the presidential election (thereby preventing the FN from qualifying in all but 5-10 constituencies at most). Marleix supports it, but Gaudin and Morin are opposed. Some obviously remember 1997's triangulaires de la mort and the regionals made those memories come back (though the turnout in the regionals would have prevented any third-placed list in any constituency from qualifying: the threshold there is 12.5% of registered voters).

I'd actually support such reform. A deputy elected with less than 50% of the votes can't be legitimate (if ever you can consider uninominal constituency voting as legitimate). Obviously, the same thing would apply to local elections, for which the UMP crooks want the FPP system to be used.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Apparently a bunch of UMP deputies are fearing for their seats in 2012, to the point that around 200 deputies are pushing for electoral reform which would make runoff rules for legislative elections identical to those for the presidential election (thereby preventing the FN from qualifying in all but 5-10 constituencies at most). Marleix supports it, but Gaudin and Morin are opposed. Some obviously remember 1997's triangulaires de la mort and the regionals made those memories come back (though the turnout in the regionals would have prevented any third-placed list in any constituency from qualifying: the threshold there is 12.5% of registered voters).

I'd actually support such reform. A deputy elected with less than 50% of the votes can't be legitimate (if ever you can consider uninominal constituency voting as legitimate). Obviously, the same thing would apply to local elections, for which the UMP crooks want the FPP system to be used.

I'd much prefer STV to be used, but a runoff if there is to be one should be between the top two finishers, though such a rule would hurt small parties.

We definitely agree.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Damn, Le Pen higher than Duflot...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Mélenchon should be praised just for contributing to kill Besancenot !

...Which is a good thing for the left.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Mélenchon should be praised just for contributing to kill Besancenot !

...Which is a good thing for the left.

Yeah. Mélenchon is a funny guy, Besancenot is boring and old.

And Mélenchon is able to ally with the PS and agree on a common project, which means that his votes won't be wasted as were Besancenot's.

[Antonio the Sixth]

A bit old but just fell on this, enjoy:

http://www.liberation.fr/politiques/0101589885-des-tracts-insultants-royal-et-aubry-laches-par-un-avion-a-poitiers

It's the story of guy who has apparently social issues (way to say it), informatician who also know how to pilot small planes, living in Paris, and who piloted a plane from the Parisian region to Poitiers, capital of the Poitou-Charente région, the one directed by Ségolène Royal, in order to release insulting tracts toward Ségolène Royal and Martine Aubry over the area of Poitiers from his plane, without landing, and went back to Paris.

lol.

LOL indeed.