You want your money back??

[Antonio the Sixth]

Conservative Party opinion =/= Great British public

Cameron has made Britain the most isolated it's been since the 90s, to be fair.

You've gotta admit, it's not the first time UK is a thorn in EU's side.

[Antonio the Sixth]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

[Antonio the Sixth]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

[Antonio the Sixth]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

i acknowledge that. the problem as i see it is that the european union is too inflexible to reform without drastic measures.

It might be... But my philosophy has never been "when something doesn't work well enough, let's break it", but rather "let's fix it to the best we can". If all left-wingers who are dissatisfied with the current State of the EU joined together in demanding a major overhaul of the EU's governance and policies, we'd have a fair chance to succeed.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

the answer is to change globalization, not to sacrifice the welfare model

You can't really "change" globalization, nor can you stop it. The only thing we can do is make sure political globalization catches up with economic globalization. And EU, as awful as it might be, is the best vehicle we have for that purpose.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

the answer is to change globalization, not to sacrifice the welfare model

You can't really "change" globalization, nor can you stop it. The only thing we can do is make sure political globalization catches up with economic globalization. And EU, as awful as it might be, is the best vehicle we have for that purpose.

i don't believe that for a second - look at the 1870-1914 model of globalization. while i'm not saying it would be a good idea to have a world war to prevent it going any further, it's by no means irreversible.

What do you mean exactly? Yes, States used to have more leverage in the global economy at that time, but that was because economic globalization wasn't yet brought to all its logical conclusions. What has happened since then in the economic sphere was destined to happen. The biggest mistake was that the State didn't see it coming soon enough to counteract this, or were unwilling to because of national pride.

[Antonio the Sixth]

We can have this discussion over and over again, SwedishCheese. Please, I am well aware that my ideas are out of the mainstream and that the system I support isn't likely to become reality anytime soon. I still think it is possible, little step by little step, to advance a federalist and Social-Democratic vision of the EU, and gradually improve the severely flawed union we now have in order to build something better out of it. Is this naive? Maybe. But I also think it's the only alternative we have to the utter economic and social collapse of Europe. I'd rather cling to an unlikely utopia than resign myself to this nightmare.

[Antonio the Sixth]

We can have this discussion over and over again, SwedishCheese. Please, I am well aware that my ideas are out of the mainstream and that the system I support isn't likely to become reality anytime soon. I still think it is possible, little step by little step, to advance a federalist and Social-Democratic vision of the EU, and gradually improve the severely flawed union we now have in order to build something better out of it. Is this naive? Maybe. But I also think it's the only alternative we have to the utter economic and social collapse of Europe. I'd rather cling to an unlikely utopia than resign myself to this nightmare.

You don't care about the fact that it is this vision that has created the collapse? Thanks to the idiotic overreach of the federalists all the progress made since WWII when it comes to free trade and freedom of movement is now in jeopardy.

What? LOL no.

My vision never "created" anything because, as Swedish Cheese himself put it, it never prevailed.

[Antonio the Sixth]

We can have this discussion over and over again, SwedishCheese. Please, I am well aware that my ideas are out of the mainstream and that the system I support isn't likely to become reality anytime soon. I still think it is possible, little step by little step, to advance a federalist and Social-Democratic vision of the EU, and gradually improve the severely flawed union we now have in order to build something better out of it. Is this naive? Maybe. But I also think it's the only alternative we have to the utter economic and social collapse of Europe. I'd rather cling to an unlikely utopia than resign myself to this nightmare.

You don't care about the fact that it is this vision that has created the collapse? Thanks to the idiotic overreach of the federalists all the progress made since WWII when it comes to free trade and freedom of movement is now in jeopardy.

What? LOL no.

My vision never "created" anything because, as Swedish Cheese himself put it, it never prevailed.

Your vision, as stated by you: " I still think it is possible, little step by little step, to advance a federalist and Social-Democratic vision of the EU"

That's what's behind the euro and that in turn has played a huge part in putting us where we are now.

(well, not us so much, since we were thankfully sensible enough to vote no, but those European countries foolish enough to adopt the euro)

While some Social-Democrats might have supported the Euro with this spirit (and, yes, I could rank among them), I don't think they were the main force behind its adoption. Sure, there was Delors, but my brand of Social-Democracy has never really been a dominant force among the countries of the Eurozone. I'm pretty sure prospects of economic benefits were the key reason behind its adoption by countries like France and Germany. And indeed the Euro had some positive economic repercussions for them in the past decade.

Anyways, while I understand why an Euroskeptic would blame the current debt crisis on the Euro, you have to acknowledge that, in our perspective, the problem is the lack of budgetary integration between countries. If we had European bonds with which to back the currency in case of speculations, nothing of this crisis would have ever happened.