You want your money back??

[k-onmmunist]

britain pays a lot into the eu and gets little out of it. it's time we pulled the plug on the corporatist bureaucrats and left altogether - we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

sick of hearing anglophobic nonsense like this.

[k-onmmunist]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

[k-onmmunist]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

i acknowledge that. the problem as i see it is that the european union is too inflexible to reform without drastic measures.

[k-onmmunist]

we'll see how long the continent can tolerate the monetary hit without us.

Right, because your (yeah, Cameron's, but still) insane austerity policies have been helping the EU economy a lot lately...

well, i can agree on his policies being insane, but the uk still pays in an absolute fortune. i fail to see how left wingers can defend the european union though, given its anti-democratic nature and the corporatism involved. they ruled against workers rights in the laval and viking cases because workers rights violates 'free movement of labour' due to all countries having to comply (though admittedly, britain's ridiculous union laws don't help)

There is a difference between supporting the idea of EU and supporting the EU as it is.

i acknowledge that. the problem as i see it is that the european union is too inflexible to reform without drastic measures.

It might be... But my philosophy has never been "when something doesn't work well enough, let's break it", but rather "let's fix it to the best we can". If all left-wingers who are dissatisfied with the current State of the EU joined together in demanding a major overhaul of the EU's governance and policies, we'd have a fair chance to succeed.

i think the problem is that the eu is currently caught between statuses. i'm completely in favour of european free trade, as long as europe is able to maintain relatively similiar wage levels. i'd also be open to the idea of european state if that came to be, some time in the future. but as things are currently constituted, the eu resembles a highly bloated bureaucracy with the aim of enforcing numerous economic and social goals which could be done through simple treaties.

the problem with trying to fix the eu is that its designed in a way that makes reform very difficult. it might have been possible in the past when it was a small economic agreement between western european countries, but you've got over 20 members now, all of whom have to agree for a new treaty to be signed into law. that makes it very difficult for the eu to be reformed beyond the most simple measures.

[k-onmmunist]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

the answer is to change globalization, not to sacrifice the welfare model

[k-onmmunist]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

the answer is to change globalization, not to sacrifice the welfare model

You can't really "change" globalization, nor can you stop it. The only thing we can do is make sure political globalization catches up with economic globalization. And EU, as awful as it might be, is the best vehicle we have for that purpose.

i don't believe that for a second - look at the 1870-1914 model of globalization. while i'm not saying it would be a good idea to have a world war to prevent it going any further, it's by no means irreversible.

[k-onmmunist]

I agree that a smaller EU would work much better, really I agree with most of what you guys said. But what I also know is that there is no way tiny countries like those that compose EU can durably preserve their Welfare State and standards of living against the pressure of globalized corporations. So, like it or not, the EU is the only blueprint we have for a concentration of countries defending together their common interests. Much leaves to be desired, but fixing it remains our only hope.

the answer is to change globalization, not to sacrifice the welfare model

You can't really "change" globalization, nor can you stop it. The only thing we can do is make sure political globalization catches up with economic globalization. And EU, as awful as it might be, is the best vehicle we have for that purpose.

i don't believe that for a second - look at the 1870-1914 model of globalization. while i'm not saying it would be a good idea to have a world war to prevent it going any further, it's by no means irreversible.

What do you mean exactly? Yes, States used to have more leverage in the global economy at that time, but that was because economic globalization wasn't yet brought to all its logical conclusions. What has happened since then in the economic sphere was destined to happen. The biggest mistake was that the State didn't see it coming soon enough to counteract this, or were unwilling to because of national pride.

i don't believe in talking of globalization mystically though, as if it was always going to happen and there's nothing that can stop it. globalization has simply become the extension of corporatism outside of the triad of western europe-japan-the united states. globalization as in the opening of markets and such has always been happening, it's just varied as to what degree throughout history. it's feasible that leverage could be regained by the state if they were to cease their fear of taking on large corporations. a hundred years ago, we used to bust companies that refused to play fair and that ate up the market. now we hand them taxpayers money and declare them 'too big to fail'.