question for the libertarians (re:medicaid)

[WalterMitty]

should medicaid be abolished?

(i think i already know the libertarian position on medicare, so no need asking about it)

[WalterMitty]

The money spent on Medicaid and other such programs is much less then than the costs of going without those programs, even if you completely dismiss any of the moral arguments for them. Poverty hurts everyone, not just those who are in poverty.

youre right.

i dont understand how anyone could be opposed to medicaid.  i really dont understand.

maybe we should ask libertarians how they feel about  taxation on dividends, the estate tax and the capital gains tax.

[WalterMitty]

Walter you seem to be in "attack Libertarians" mode today. Rather than going on the defensive I think I'll go on the offensive. Lets look at the performance of your party.

Since the Republicans took control of the white house as well as the legislature the national debt has grown from $5.7 trillion to $8.7 trillion an increase of 50% in only 6 years. The government's unfunded future  liabilities now stands at $54 trillion, in large part due to Medicare and Medicaid. That figure was not  tracked until last year, so we can't say how much it has grown during W's tenure but it did grow $3 trillion since last year. That mountain of debt will be left to our children, yours as well as mine, to deal with. And that's from the party that billed itself as being fiscally responsible. BTW for the tenth year in a row the financial report  issued by the government was so screwed up that the GAO refused to certify it. Now there's some fiscal responsibility.

We are now in a war we have no need to be in, a war that has cost 3000 American lives, 50,000 Iraq lives and many billions of dollars. Its a war we were lead into based on falsehoods.

W has put at least one American in jail without charges and kept him there for three years. Its a violation of the 5th and 6th amendments as well as habeas corpus. But what do you expect when  W thinks the constitution is "just a piece of paper".

The Patriot act encroaches on the 4th amendment and the campaign finance reform act encroaches on the 1st. Both acts were passed by a Republican controlled legislature and signed into law by W.

You seem to think the healthcare situation in America is deplorable, but it was your party in conjunction with the D's who created it. We, the Libertarians who have no power whatsoever in government, had nothing to do with it.

Maybe you need to clean up your own backyard before you complain about ours.

i just think it is repulsive how your party wants goodies from the government in the form of lucrative tax breaks, yet you all want to take health care away from the few poor folks that have it.  how can anyone defend that?

yes, the republican record on the debt is horrible.  id be the first to admit that. 

im a war supporter.  obviously the world changed after 9/11 and we just cant bury our heads in the sand and wait for the next attack.  we must go on the offensive.

the patriot act is just a boogeyman dreamed up by liberals and the black helicopter crowd.  im not aware of anyone who is getting their rights stripped away because of the patriot act.

[WalterMitty]

Walter you seem to be in "attack Libertarians" mode today.

Isn't that every day?

well there is a reason why your candidates cant seem to get over 0.47% of the vote.

and mac, dont you attend michigan state?  libertarians dont have a problem with land grant colleges?

[WalterMitty]

well there is a reason why your candidates cant seem to get over 0.47% of the vote.

And that's because they share the same positions as your beloved Club for Growth.

universal single payer health care is a very pro-business position.

the libertarians and the club for growth should support it as i do.

[WalterMitty]

universal single payer health care is a very pro-business position.

*snicker* Yeah, I'm sure all the insurance companies would just love having medical insurance being handled by someone other than themselves.

but other employers would sure like to have that burden off their backs.

[WalterMitty]

universal single payer health care is a very pro-business position.

*snicker* Yeah, I'm sure all the insurance companies would just love having medical insurance being handled by someone other than themselves.

but other employers would sure like to have that burden off their backs.

Yes the auto companies (that you don't like much) would very much like to dump that burden onto the taxpayers i.e. you. Then despite the fact that you can't afford your own healthcare insurance you will be forced to pay for the healthcare of those UAW  employees that you also don't like much.

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

as ive said many times, ive paid one hell of a price.  so whatever mistakes ive made, ive paid for them plus some.

i realize that libertarians dont give  a damn about people like me.  the party platform makes it painfully obvious.

[WalterMitty]

universal single payer health care is a very pro-business position.

*snicker* Yeah, I'm sure all the insurance companies would just love having medical insurance being handled by someone other than themselves.

but other employers would sure like to have that burden off their backs.

Yes the auto companies (that you don't like much) would very much like to dump that burden onto the taxpayers i.e. you. Then despite the fact that you can't afford your own healthcare insurance you will be forced to pay for the healthcare of those UAW  employees that you also don't like much.

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

as ive said many times, ive paid one hell of a price.  so whatever mistakes ive made, ive paid for them plus some.

i realize that libertarians dont give  a damn about people like me.  the party platform makes it painfully obvious.

Walter I don't know what your situation is or how you got into it. What I do know is that you want government to give you healthcare insurance. But government must take the money from someone else to pay for that insurance. Maybe the money government is taking from them is money they need to make the house payment, or buy food or send their kids to college, or to fund a saving account for their retirement. Maybe they need that money just as bad as you do. The difference is they earned it. You didn't.

i understand that.

but i think it is immoral that millions of people are shut out of the health care system.  all those people get is a trip to the emergency room once in awhile when things get really bad.  no preventive medicine.  no mental health services.  nothing

ill agree that someone who has worked hard and accumulated wealth deserves the finer things in life a hell of lot more than a loser like me.

but i absolutely disagree that the health care of the wealthy is more important than the health care of the poor or middle class.

health care is a human right.  everyone should be entitled to top quality health care, regardless of their income.

[WalterMitty]

universal single payer health care is a very pro-business position.

*snicker* Yeah, I'm sure all the insurance companies would just love having medical insurance being handled by someone other than themselves.

but other employers would sure like to have that burden off their backs.

Yes the auto companies (that you don't like much) would very much like to dump that burden onto the taxpayers i.e. you. Then despite the fact that you can't afford your own healthcare insurance you will be forced to pay for the healthcare of those UAW  employees that you also don't like much.

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

as ive said many times, ive paid one hell of a price.  so whatever mistakes ive made, ive paid for them plus some.

i realize that libertarians dont give  a damn about people like me.  the party platform makes it painfully obvious.

Walter I don't know what your situation is or how you got into it. What I do know is that you want government to give you healthcare insurance. But government must take the money from someone else to pay for that insurance. Maybe the money government is taking from them is money they need to make the house payment, or buy food or send their kids to college, or to fund a saving account for their retirement. Maybe they need that money just as bad as you do. The difference is they earned it. You didn't.

i understand that.

but i think it is immoral that millions of people are shut out of the health care system.  all those people get is a trip to the emergency room once in awhile when things get really bad.  no preventive medicine.  no mental health services.  nothing

ill agree that someone who has worked hard and accumulated wealth deserves the finer things in life a hell of lot more than a loser like me.

but i absolutely disagree that the health care of the wealthy is more important than the health care of the poor or middle class.

health care is a human right.  everyone should be entitled to top quality health care, regardless of their income.

Well let's look at some similar situations:  My next door neighbor lost his home last year. The bank foreclosed on it. Its really a shame, because over the 6 or 7 years he lived there he probably put about $25,000 into improvements. But now he's lost it all. I would guess that his mortgage payment was roughly equal to what a healthcare plan for a family would cost. In my estimation a home is even more of a necessity of life than healthcare insurance. So should the government have paid his mortgage costs? Should government provide "top quality" homes to everyone? Aren't food, and clothing necessities too? Should government provide those things to everyone? And how about a car? In many parts of the country a car is a necessity. Should the government provide "top quality"  cars (Mercedes) for everyone? Should the government just take 100% of everyone's income and then provide them with everything the government thinks they need?

That last step would make the country 100% socialist in my opinion. Maybe you could even call it communist. I think that prospect might rankle even you. But aren't each of the things I mentioned just another step toward that ultimate outcome?

no i dont think the government should make anyone's mortgage payment.

but i certainly support section 8 assistance.  that program should be expanded.

food, shelter and health care are necessities.

[WalterMitty]

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

health care is a human right. 

food, shelter and health care are necessities.

Are all necessities also "human rights"? Or just the ones you cannot afford?

low blow.

ive already admitted im a loser.

but i know how it feels to be sick with little means to see a doctor.  it isnt fun.  going through hell kind of makes you passionate about some things.

[WalterMitty]

i think everyone is well aware that i cant afford health insurance.

health care is a human right. 

food, shelter and health care are necessities.

Are all necessities also "human rights"? Or just the ones you cannot afford?

ive already admitted im a loser.

Walter I never called you a loser and you should not think of yourself that way. All of us make mistakes and some of them are extremely painful. As the oldest geezer on the forum I can tell you I've made my share of them.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

My neighbor who lost his house probably went through hell too. Not only did he suffer a financial loss but was also faced with the question of where is he going to live. So he probably felt he had as much need for government help as you do, but government doesn't do mortgage payments, nor should they in my opinion. Yeah life's lessons can be painful but without that fear of pain we would have little incentive to make good decisions. Why worry -the government will take care of me. 

Capitalism provides incentives for working hard and making good decisions, and it provides unpleasant lessons for not doing those things. Its kind of a carrot and a stick approach that drives us all to be productive people. Communism provides a different incentive; work or we'll kill you. Between the two I'll take capitalism.

Earlier you said food, shelter and healthcare are necessities and you implied that government should provide them. For some people those things would be all they need. They might say I don't need anything else, so why should I work? It would be kind of a lite version of Opebo's "generous welfare benefits for those who choose not to work." The result would be  a lot of people who don't work and are supported by the tax dollars of those who still get up every day and go to work. Its rather unfair to the ones who still put in their sweat equity, don't you think?

do you honestly believe people are going to quit work just so they can go on section 8 and food stamps?

[WalterMitty]

ive already admitted im a loser.

Stop with the self-defeating attitude already.

True.  This is probably making you sicker than any virus could.  The great thing is that this can be treated for free-just develop a good sense of self-esteem.  (the lack thereof must be why you're so adamant about attacking parties that get .5% of the vote)

you dont know my situation (other than the info ive volunteered on here, which is very little)

obviously, i do suffer from lack of self esteem.  you have no idea of the root causes of that.  if it was so easy to just snap out of it and pull myself up by the bootstraps, dont you think i would have done that long ago?

oh  i try every day.  god only knows how much i try.