DC Unrest Megathread

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

They’ve already escalated well past the point of trying not to provoke them. If you want them to back down now, swift and decisive force is the only way to go.

It could get worse. It could absolutely get worse.

They just stormed the Capitol in a plot to decapitate legislative leadership. The bleeding edge has already reached the point of war, we need to hit back as hard as possible, mass arrest of those involved and throw the damn book at them, so separate the vanguard from the rest.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

They’ve already escalated well past the point of trying not to provoke them. If you want them to back down now, swift and decisive force is the only way to go.

It could get worse. It could absolutely get worse.

They just stormed the Capitol in a plot to decapitate legislative leadership. The bleeding edge has already reached the point of war, we need to hit back as hard as possible, mass arrest of those involved and throw the damn book at them, so separate the vanguard from the rest.

If you make decisions that conciously create the impression people are being silenced and/or locked up because they support Trump regardless of what happened on Capitol Hill, then that's such an efficient way of generating more incidents of this kind in the future. Whatever the proportion is who might support that now, it'll grow.
I could hardly think of a more counterproductive idea.

Letting them walk or going with misdemeanors so now this is just politics as normal seems like it beats it pretty cleanly as bad ideas go

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

They’ve already escalated well past the point of trying not to provoke them. If you want them to back down now, swift and decisive force is the only way to go.

It could get worse. It could absolutely get worse.

They just stormed the Capitol in a plot to decapitate legislative leadership. The bleeding edge has already reached the point of war, we need to hit back as hard as possible, mass arrest of those involved and throw the damn book at them, so separate the vanguard from the rest.

If you make decisions that conciously create the impression people are being silenced and/or locked up because they support Trump regardless of what happened on Capitol Hill, then that's such an efficient way of generating more incidents of this kind in the future. Whatever the proportion is who might support that now, it'll grow.
I could hardly think of a more counterproductive idea.

Letting them walk or going with misdemeanors so now this is just politics as normal seems like it beats it pretty cleanly as bad ideas go

My proposition is charging the rioters involved in what happened for actions they actually did, and more or less stopping there. If that means individual rioter X gets 10 years in prison due to a Trump EO, then so be it.
Regardless though, we need to continue protect legitimate activism on both the left and right and stand by our Bill of Rights. And at no point whatsoever should we give off the impression that the mere act of being a Trump supporter is being penalized.

What they did was Sedition and it carries a 20 year penalty. Some of them also did Felony Murder with special circumstances, which is a capital crime, but I’d suggest life for pr reasons.

I’m not sure why you are worried legitimate protest given that there was nothing of the sort at play here.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Is it just me, or is the very real possibility that Trump's crimes go well beyond incitement being criminally ignored? European security officials are suspecting that federal law enforcement was directed to enable or assist the attempt coup: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1

Certainly would explain some of the gross misconduct of Capitol Police, and Trump's refusal to activate the National Guard.

I've believed this since the revelation that Trump had blocked the DC National Guard from being deployed. The media has not really gone at the "Trump tried to overthrow the government" angle, and I agree with you, that's a big disservice.

I wonder what the plan was. To storm the Capitol, make the members of Congress invalidate electoral votes from seven contested states, force them to vote for President in the House of Representatives and elect Trump.

Well, plan is doing allot of work there, but essentially yes. He expected the mob to disrupt meetings, take hostages, and prevent formal validation so he can say ‘ha ha I’m still president’.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

https://twitter.com/pbump/status/1347979462898556929

Legal question: Is this entrapment or is entrapment defined more narrowly than that?

Entrapment would be the police asking someone to commit a crime. This post isn’t doing that

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Trump needs to go to jail for the rest of his life and Don Jr and Rudy is gonna also go to jail for the rest of their lives

FIFY, also Eric

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Seth Abramson doing a deep dive on the President’s call to insurrection.

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1347908845281095680

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/status/1347915446897446916
LMAO

I thought it was weird Daniel Stern kept his Twitter account after his coup attempt

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

https://twitter.com/SenSherrodBrown/status/1348018812050878467?s=20

Sherrod mothering Brown!

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

The core Trump supporters are petite bourgeois, not the lumpen-proletariat.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

https://twitter.com/brianstelter/status/1348077057687875585
MORE unstable???

Look, if he tries to kill me again, I’ll seriously think about it.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

"They're just peaceful protesters. All we want is peace. Peace! Peeeaaace!"



🎵 A little piece of Schumer, a little slice of Pence 🎵
🎵 Some pieces of McConnell, Graham, and Adam Schiff, perchance 🎵
🎵 A little slice of Nancy, with some chopped-up Warnock sauce 🎵
🎵 And then some tastes of Harris, Biden, Ossoff, and DeVos! 🎵



(Credit to Mel Brooks)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_as_metaphor

"If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun, Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl"  - Barack Obama

Was this before or after that time President Obama gathered up a mob and marched them into the capitol to overthrow congress?
I always get confused with timelines

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

https://twitter.com/brianstelter/status/1348077057687875585
MORE unstable???

Is he waiting for something bigger and worse to happen?

Come on, is Pence really this stupid?

I think he's using this as leverage over Trump.

If Trump was removed, he wouldn’t need leverage.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Liberals would do well to reflect on this quote by Martin Luther King, there is a lot of truth to it with regard to how many Americans feel.

A riot is the language of the unheard - Martin Luther King

These are the single most disproportionately heard people in the nation. Every single major media outlet in country has spent four years trying to understand and start a dialog with the Trump voter. Plus, you know, their personal lord and savior was President.
Also what they were there protesting based on crazy pants conspiracy theories. How exactly are we supposed to make accommodations that make people who believe elections aren’t real and a secret cabal of demon worshiping cannibal pedophiles are running the world feel heard?

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Liberals would do well to reflect on this quote by Martin Luther King, there is a lot of truth to it with regard to how many Americans feel.

A riot is the language of the unheard - Martin Luther King

If there is one thing on God's green Earth that a trump supporter is not, it's unheard. You can't open a paper without reading yet another profile of one of their diners in the middle of nowhere. They are not an oppressed minority like African Americans in the civil rights era, they are a coddled, romanticized minority that uses violence and corruption to achieve their political goals and to stay in power despite almost always receiving less votes than the majority party.

Don't twist Dr. King's words to defend racists, neo-nazis and murderers. It's disgusting.

All the major institutions, corporations, academia, media, the entertainment industry are opposed to Trump supporters who are ridiculed and often lose their jobs for the views, they are an oppressed group, they are oppressed by all of the major institutions and their voices are not listened to by any major institution in America except for now the WH.

On the contrary, the existence of the electoral college and the Senate, two of our founding institutions, makes sure their voices are overrepresented.

and they stole 2 SCOTUS seats so they're overrepresented in all three branches.

Also everyone at an elite law school who’s enough of a hack or lunatic to join the Fedsoc gets strapped to rocket re: clerkships

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1348284578037960706

Thank God. And I don't believe that is a hyperbolic statement whatsoever. Mass prosecution's of these people who almost universally escaped arrest on that day is a crucial part of History establishing the wrongness of this traitorous violent insurrection.

Now if they'll just go after the ringleader....

They have a very good defense. They were instructed to do so by the President of the United States. They believed they were doing the right thing.

Wouldn’t that put one in more legal jeopardy not let less.

‘You stand accused of unlawful entry, disorderly conduct, and vandalism’
‘Oh no, your honor, I was trying to overthrow the government on the President’s behalf. He told me to.’

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

https://twitter.com/rexchapman/status/1348347827173412866?s=10
This is monstrous

Felony Murder

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Trump Terrorists are being added to the no-fly list:

https://twitter.com/RayRedacted/status/1348388601118273537?s=20

It’s amazing that they genuinely seemed to think there would be no consequences.


Then again

..when you catch somebody in a fraud your allowed to go by very different rules

From Trump’s call to arms.

So maybe not surprising?

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Am I the only one who thinks Trump can recover from this by 2024?
Or am I just a doomer?

Two days ago I would agree with you. But already we are seeing confederates and fellow travelers coming out of the woodwork to both sides and white wash, calls for letting the perpetrators go in the name of unity,  and the Republican caucus is seemingly back to brow furrow and promises that they will do something next time we promise. Or outright witch hunt accusations. (General reminder, witch hunts are bad because there aren't witches)

I feel like the GOP is already working on memory holing this one.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Wasn't there a big uproar about how Trump was installing his loyalists in the DOD and Pentagon a few weeks ago?  Has anyone investigated if they had some involvement in the government standing down while these terrorists invaded the capitol?

Yes, yes there was.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Trespassing and disorderly conduct? Where are the real charges? He didn't find the taser and restraints in some closet in the Capitol - he brought them with him all the way from Tennessee to take prisoners in the Capitol.

Other than illegal gun ownership and maybe "attempted kidnapping" (is that a real crime definition?) what other crimes could you charge them with?

Like I've repeatedly said, trespassing (and I suppose disorderly conduct) are the only crimes where the people who got into the capitol are 99%+ likely to be convicted; but any other crimes have a very low chance of success.

Collective punishment I must imagine would be unconstitutional. And sedition is not generally a crime where "foot soldiers" get charged.

I can't believe I have to keep posting this

Seditious Conspiracy
US Code 2384

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

Rioting

(a) Whoever travels in interstate or foreign commerce or uses any facility of interstate or foreign commerce, including, but not limited to, the mail, telegraph, telephone, radio, or television, with intent—
(1) to incite a riot; or
(2) to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot; or
(3) to commit any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; or
(4) to aid or abet any person in inciting or participating in or carrying on a riot or committing any act of violence in furtherance of a riot;
and who either during the course of any such travel or use or thereafter performs or attempts to perform any other overt act for any purpose specified in subparagraph (A), (B), (C), or (D) of this paragraph— [1]
Shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

a) As used in this chapter, the term “riot” means a public disturbance involving (1) an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons, which act or acts shall constitute a clear and present danger of, or shall result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual or (2) a threat or threats of the commission of an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons having, individually or collectively, the ability of immediate execution of such threat or threats, where the performance of the threatened act or acts of violence would constitute a clear and present danger of, or would result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual.

Also, for everyone in that crowd trying to break into the doorway where the officer was beat to death, Felony Murder. That's actually a capital offense, given that the victim was a police officer in the course of his duties, but I have to think they only seek life.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

snip

I mean, I am plenty familiar with what sedition is and is not; it's not like there wasn't a huge debate in Spain about that back in 2019 And let me tell you, while the crime rises to the level of sedition; like I've said tons of times before, you generally do not punish the "foot soldiers" for that.

Obviously I am not familiar with the exact US definitions but they don't seem too different from the Spanish ones, especially the one about sedition which I've pastebinned here. Also included the similar crime of rebellion since they both reference each other, as well as the crimes of "disobedience", and "Public disorders"" since I guess those 2 would be the ones that would apply if it happened here.

To be honest my reluctance to punish the MAGA rioters comes because, when we actually had a crime of sedition happening here in 2017, only the 10 people or so who were directly responsible for it were put behind bars, and even those people were only given senteces of 10-13 years for 1 count of sedition and 1 count of public funds misuse.

The punishments that Atlas red avatars seem to want to impose on the MAGA rioters would make any Spanish far rightist think they are way too excessive; not even the most visceral Spanish far rightist would have defended jailing everyone who went out in Catalonia in Autumn 2017!

As for the murder charge, like I said, collective punishment is probably unconstitutional? Like unless you can find the exact person (or people) who killed the policeman, I don't think anyone should be charged with that? How does that work; like if say, there is a huge fight with tons of people and the exact murderer can't be found among the crowd?

That’s when a Common Law principle called Felony Murder comes into play. Basically, that if a group of people commit a felony in which physical violence can be expected or the possibility of the same is disregarded and a murder occurs in the course of it, everyone involved in the felony is also liable for the murder. The textbook example is three people rob a bank and one of the shoots and kills someone. All three can be charged with murder.
I’m not suggesting we charge everyone at the Capitol with murder, that would clearly be abuse, but the crowd pushing down that door absolutely should.

As to the rest of the post, I think two things are at play here. The first is that the American justice system in general and the federal system in particular is rather harsh in terms of sentencing. This isn’t by any stretch a good thing, but we are more comfortable with long sentences. The second is that this simply hasn’t happened here. No one, well no one with the capability to do so, has ever tried to use a mob to keep themselves in office by force. It’s simply not something that happens here and I’d like to clamp down as hard as possible to keep it that way.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

"For Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer to continue on this path, I think it's causing tremendous danger to our county and it's causing tremendous anger. I want no violence."

Exact words at Andrews


Jesus, he's openly threatening to do ot again

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Question for any resident law talker guys;
Is there are arguement that any pardon made for crimes that a President (or Governor) participated in is made for corrupt purposes or gives the appearance of the same?
Or am I talking out my ass?

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Lisa McClain decides to use her first speech on ‘sure insurrection is bad, but what about Dems’