Which of these "covid view camps" do you fall into?

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

The results of this poll are honestly concerning. For a while I actually felt like this forum was too hawkish on COVID, but now it seems like the backlash in the other direction is getting out of control.

There just seems like there are no ends to these measures and haven't been able to travel to visit family in india for 3 years., i've been having fully online zoom university for the last 2 years despite living in a country that is 95% vaccinated.

There just seems like the current restrictions are idenfinite and a lot of covid hawks don't seem to care about that. Also your idea of a permenant mask mandate is just tyrannical and silly, are we never going to be able to return to pre-pandemic life, sacrifice the entirety of my youth  and possibly the rest of my life for this.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

I don't see how the comparison is absurd at all. The ability that we have to recognize other people is powerful beyond belief. It's what lets us see faces on Mars. Recognizing and knowing other humans is fundamental to what makes us human. When we interact with others, non-verbal communication is just as important as verbal communication, and most of that nonverbal communication is in the face. Cutting off most of the face destroys that.

When I have advanced this argument elsewhere in the past, I've been met with the response that people can understand the emotions and feelings of people they know just fine even with a mask. Even if we suppose that to be the case, what about people they don't know? There is a reason that "faceless stranger" is practically a set phrase in English; without their faces, strangers hardly seem human. When you go into a crowd in a public place where everyone is wearing a mask, you find that you are not met with a single face. It is a perfectly faceless crowd.

At this time, our society is more atomized than it has been at any time in human history, and we find ourselves paying the price over and over. With social trust lower than ever, I find it inconceivable that forcing everyone to put up a fence between themselves and the world passes without a second thought.

I get that, and I don't think I've been trying to minimize the social element of seeing people's faces. Obviously a society where we never did so would be a pretty disturbing one. I just don't think doing that for a few years, in specific settings with large gatherings in enclosed spaces, has been that socially harmful. Maybe my perspective is biased here because I've never been one for big crowd events in the first place, and I'll try to keep that in mind in future discussions. But at the same time, I do think that the harm of not doing so is pretty hard to dispute, and if another year or two of masking in specific high-risk settings can get us to a place of being able to live with the virus without significant strain, that seems worth it to me.

I would ask you: what do you think of niqabs? I don't mean whether you think that wearing a niqab should be illegal; I just want to know how you feel about the practice of wearing that article of clothing. Personally I find it repulsive and abhorrent, because its purpose is to erect a barrier between its wearer and the world. It is, quite literally, a cloth mask. Why wouldn't cloth masks have that effect except that we don't want them to?

I mean, it's definitely not the kind of cultural practice I'd want to encourage, no. Of course it goes a bit further than a cloth mask in terms what it covers, and I'd argue that the most abhorrent aspect of it is the gendered element. I don't think you really needed this comparison to make your point.

That might be your experience but it's clear not mine, here in Singapore our mask mandate applies everytime you are outside with the narrow exception for heavy exercise. You might be walking alone in a park with not a person in sight but the law here mandates you have to wear a mask. My social gatherings have been capped at mostly 5 people with it varying between totally restricted and at the maximum of 8 people and my education has been perpetually on zoom. Singapore has also implemented a strict mandatory qurantine system and I am right now serving a 7 day home qurantine.  I was only able to make a trip due to families fortunate economic position as while as a dire need to see my 90 year old grandfather.

Outdoor masks by themselves do not stop the spread of omicron, even a lockdown doesn't do that once you get a sufficient amount of community spread as can be seen in the Netherlands where cases have continued rising despite a lockdown. What benefit is a mask mandate when it's clearly insufficient to stop the spread, nothing sort of a full china style lockdown for many months would be where there's clearly no political appetite.

Also saying for a few years is handwaving away the fact that we are no closer to the end of the pandemic despite being promised it many times, we were told that we just needed to lockdown for a few weeks to flatten the curve, then until the vaccine was avaliable and the elderly vaccinated, then until 50,6099% of adults are vaccinated for herd immunity, then I was told that was insufficent and even kids had to be vaccinated. Finaly we have arrived with omicron where the new hurdle being held is the claim that if everyone get's bolstered that will end the pandemic. It's not a conspiracy theory to see that these benchmarks are never going to allow the pandemic to end.

My country has essentially put a universal booster mandate if you wish to enter any indoor space or enter a workplace, essential making getting a booster mandatory if you wish to do anything other than be a hermit. Despite this, our cases are still rising sharply similar to everywhere else except china.

Now I support vaccination and boosters because I have looked at the data and seen how effective they have been at reducing the severity of the disease and the death rate, Omicron with 2 doses of the vaccine is effectivley at the same level of the flu. We have been able to bring down the diseases death rate to that of the flu, why can't we as a society treat it as such instead of wanting permanent restrictions ?

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

That might be your experience but it's clear not mine, here in Singapore our mask mandate applies everytime you are outside with the narrow exception for heavy exercise. You might be walking alone in a park with not a person in sight but the law here mandates you have to wear a mask. My social gatherings have been capped at mostly 5 people with it varying between totally restricted and at the maximum of 8 people and my education has been perpetually on zoom. Singapore has also implemented a strict mandatory qurantine system and I am right now serving a 7 day home qurantine.  I was only able to make a trip due to families fortunate economic position as while as a dire need to see my 90 year old grandfather.

Outdoor masks by themselves do not stop the spread of omicron, even a lockdown doesn't do that once you get a sufficient amount of community spread as can be seen in the Netherlands where cases have continued rising despite a lockdown. What benefit is a mask mandate when it's clearly insufficient to stop the spread, nothing sort of a full china style lockdown for many months would be where there's clearly no political appetite.

Also saying for a few years is handwaving away the fact that we are no closer to the end of the pandemic despite being promised it many times, we were told that we just needed to lockdown for a few weeks to flatten the curve, then until the vaccine was avaliable and the elderly vaccinated, then until 50,6099% of adults are vaccinated for herd immunity, then I was told that was insufficent and even kids had to be vaccinated. Finaly we have arrived with omicron where the new hurdle being held is the claim that if everyone get's bolstered that will end the pandemic. It's not a conspiracy theory to see that these benchmarks are never going to allow the pandemic to end.

My country has essentially put a universal booster mandate if you wish to enter any indoor space or enter a workplace, essential making getting a booster mandatory if you wish to do anything other than be a hermit. Despite this, our cases are still rising sharply similar to everywhere else except china.

Now I support vaccination and boosters because I have looked at the data and seen how effective they have been at reducing the severity of the disease and the death rate, Omicron with 2 doses of the vaccine is effectivley at the same level of the flu. We have been able to bring down the diseases death rate to that of the flu, why can't we as a society treat it as such instead of wanting permanent restrictions ?

I mean, those restrictions are clearly completely excessive and counterproductive clearly - but there is a difference between dropping every restriction all together and still maintaining a minimal level on the basis that while it is not dangerous on an individual level, Omicron is still transmissible enough to put a healthcare system under pretty severe pressure.

One thing that does feel noticeable at least in most of Europe is that the messaging has moved towards "once this wave is over, it will be time to drop the restrictions for good". Even if you write it off as an indeterminate future, it is still a clear change in messaging because it is the first time that the authorities have gone as far as suggesting a genuine back to normal is on the cards; and the first time an actual end point has been set.

(feels notable in that respect, that the two Western European countries to have had lockdowns over the Autumn, namely Austria and Holland, are arguably the two that are the most culturally right wing and definitely have the two most right wing governments west of the iron curtain)

In that respect, the restrictions that are in place at the moment here - principally masks in shops and public transport and a vaccine passport seem fine enough. As far as things go, the first is not a major inconvenience (as in, I'm not exactly having many social interactions on the train; and there is no mask requirement in bars or clubs or schools where it would be damaging) and the latter is not an issue at all for the 80%+ of people who are vaccinated.

I'm not completely opposed to travelling bans as you are, in fact the only countries that have been able to keep to a covid zero policy are those that have implemented mandatory quarantine for international travellers to keep covid out after having been able to eradicate it domestically through lockdowns. China, Hong Kong, NZ and Western Australia have managed using that strategy and I do think it's a valid one to choose so long as the people make democratic decisions that they prefer it over having covid-19 enter the country.

I do think the restrictions in the absence of that sort of policy are effectively indefinite and I don't want that to happen. I have been reading a lot about people advocating a new normal where schools are mostly online, mask-wearing is mandatory and presenting passes showing that we had a booster within 6 months should be made permanent.

I'm living in the utopian end-state many of those promoting restrictions want where the popular is 95% vaccinated with a booster within 6 months required to enter an indoor structure and mask-wearing mandatory every time you leave the house. Yet it still hasn't delivered on either eliminating covid or letting me go back to normal as my university is still mainly online and social gatherings are capped at 5 people while cases are still surging. yet these measure seem to be permenant with the goverment seeing it as simply part of a new normal.