This Once Great Movement Of Ours

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

SNIP

This seems to be a flaw of FPTP given the duality of the role, thought PR systems aren't exactly much better in terms of quality of parlimenterains. Generally speaking, are the Liberal democrats more flexible in terms of the qualifications of candidates than labour? and is it true that the conservative then to have a more central vetting system

The quality of MEPs was even worse over the last decade- and that was elected on a PR basis in the UK. Really the quality was dreadful- with a number of exceptions in the past; it use to be where relatively high profile anti-EEC left wingers went.

The Liberal Democrats will generally always pick someone who is local & who can look good on their leaflets; if they're very brave they might even pick someone who ideologically aligns with their party! They use to have the luxury of being able to parachute some well qualified party bureaucrat into seats but they lack safe seats these days.  

And yes the Conservative Party have a relative iron fist in that all candidates have to be approved by the central party; you're placed on a list & are required to do x number of campaign days or visits.

An example for the alternative history books is that Theresa Mays spad Nick Timothy (who wrote the disastrous 2017 manifesto) was blocked from the list in 2015 when he didn't campaign in a by-election.

I've actually met one of Theresa May's former parliamentary assistants from back when she was in shadow cabinet, he said that the reason he moved to Singapore was that his initial dreams of becoming an MP were crushed after his first attempt campaigning.

On the quality of MEP's isn't that primarly because they were irrelevant and treated as such, frankly some of UKIP's MEP's seemed like random cranks who got put on the list because they were the only ones who applied.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

With MEPs in general you can tell instantly which countries' political classes take the EP seriously and which don't.

Which country sends quality MEP's? other than the Netherlands i can't think of any. And what's the point when european parliment has no actual power or role, remember when everyone was hyped last election about how finaly the MEP would vote in a parlimentary through a democratic proccese with the various parlimentary bloc leaders actualy competing with each other.

Then Macron threw a hissy fit and it went to the same old backroom proccese as before.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mi5-names-chinese-agent-with-links-to-labour-mp-barry-gardiner-j757fsfs7

Also weird links to David Cameron.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Will he have the whip withdrawn ?

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Those two are always amusing as, in practice, their politics aren't that far removed from his lmao. Ah, the Labour Party.

Trickett's brain has sadly been melted by the Corbyn years.

I mean, just look at this:

https://twitter.com/jon_trickett/status/1482304140575481857

Is there a single voter who could possibly be gained by this tweet ? Like is there anyone out there like, I was going to support the policing bill but Rosa Luxemburg wouldn't haved like it so now I have to vote labour.


Also I find it weird how many people in the parliamentsry labour party support the spartacist uprisings which was explictly about rejecting electoral democracy and social democratic parties in favour of Soviet style council governments.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Rosa Luxemburg isn't just admired by fringe ultra-leftists tbf.

The spartacist uprising is way too over mythologized as well as the narrative of the SPD betrayal.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

? Luxembourg supported armed uprisings against the democratic SPD government.

Nope - there was no democratic SPD government - the SPD and USPD had formed a provisional government after a popular revolution, but the SPD was ready to hand over power to the militarist right (or at least, have a de-facto power sharing agreement). So, the uprsing was to resist the return to power of the old capitalist, militarist elite, even if their rule would, for some time, take the form of "democratic constitutionalism."

(Didn't last all that long - so there is a direct line from the SPD suppression of the spartacist uprising to rise the of the NSDAP)

The spartacist uprising wanted to abolish elected democracy in favour of "worker" councils that in all likelihood would have produced a USSR style dictatorship functionaly.

Launching a violent uprising and then complaining that it was. Opposed  is incredibly hypocritical. Using the freikcorps wasn't great but it was the only option the uprising gave the SPD

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

While I understand there are reservations about Wakeford, given his conservative voting record, I remain amazed by the ability of Labour factions to not only look a gifthorse in the mouth, but to demand the gifthorse be immediately turned into glue.

Between Momentum, Young Labour and Co, there seems to be a number of calls demanding Wakeford either resign, or face immediate deselection, within hours of his defection. Very Twitter-brain.

I understand even less the Tories (and some on the left) calling for an immediate by-election as some sort of own, as if the incumbent wouldn't win comfortably in current circumstances.

I do think it's the honourable thing to do and should probably be legislated to be mandatory.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

While I understand there are reservations about Wakeford, given his conservative voting record, I remain amazed by the ability of Labour factions to not only look a gifthorse in the mouth, but to demand the gifthorse be immediately turned into glue.

Between Momentum, Young Labour and Co, there seems to be a number of calls demanding Wakeford either resign, or face immediate deselection, within hours of his defection. Very Twitter-brain.

I understand even less the Tories (and some on the left) calling for an immediate by-election as some sort of own, as if the incumbent wouldn't win comfortably in current circumstances.

I do think it's the honourable thing to do and should probably be legislated to be mandatory.

It sounds good, but the practicalities of enforcing it haven't gone away.

I don't see what's impractical about it, parlimentary parties are legal bodies simply state members of such parties who contest the election under such a banner can have their office vacated if the party they contested under decides so.

We have it as a convention here in Singapore.



On another note, online left-wing outrage at Starmer is getting to levels that are beyond paraody at the moment. Here are a selection of posts from another forum that just strike me as very out of place compared to the rest of how things are going. Why is there such a disconnect between online outrage and the actual anemic starmer oppostion ?

Labour is at this point functionally hostile to the average stiff on the street with the amount of sh**t they're willing to enable and "ignore" so this is pretty unsurprising, but shocking nevertheless.

They're finally the tacked on extension to the left wing of the old dilapidated rot infested Tory pile.

The only thing approaching a solution at this point is for the Unions who back them and the PLP itself to be totally replaced by a completely different set of groups.

Labour is dead.

Up the workers.

I think it says a lot about the Labour party right now that an unrepentant Tory (he quite literally said in an interview his views haven't changed, just the colour of his rosette) who was happily endorsing and voting to cut Universal Credit, for the Police and Crime Bill and Nationality and Borers bill - is now more welcome than Corbyn.

Kind of illustrates just how far Labour have drifted rightward since 2019.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

While I understand there are reservations about Wakeford, given his conservative voting record, I remain amazed by the ability of Labour factions to not only look a gifthorse in the mouth, but to demand the gifthorse be immediately turned into glue.

Between Momentum, Young Labour and Co, there seems to be a number of calls demanding Wakeford either resign, or face immediate deselection, within hours of his defection. Very Twitter-brain.

I understand even less the Tories (and some on the left) calling for an immediate by-election as some sort of own, as if the incumbent wouldn't win comfortably in current circumstances.

I do think it's the honourable thing to do and should probably be legislated to be mandatory.

It sounds good, but the practicalities of enforcing it haven't gone away.

I don't see what's impractical about it, parlimentary parties are legal bodies simply state members of such parties who contest the election under such a banner can have their office vacated if the party they contested under decides so.

We have it as a convention here in Singapore.

It would mean that Anne-Marie Morris, for example, could be deemed to have resigned when the Tory party decided to suspend the whip from her last week. even though there's no chance she'll defect.

There is a reason that Singapore has it as a convention but most liberal democracies do not.

Well, I don't see why that would be the problem, if the tory executive wished to expel her from the party then she should resign as she won her seat as a member of the Tory party. There would be a natural limit to this thing as if a party was overeager in using this as a whipping tool then they would naturaly face a risk of their majority being lost or reduced by calling those by-elections.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

As for the practical questions of an automatic byelection on changing parties - yes it seems obvious in a case like Wakeford's - but what about someone who goes independent? Somebody who has had the whip removed or even been expelled (and maybe only actually switches parties after that)?? Truth is, are plenty of potential grey areas and opportunities for abuse by the unscrupulous.

All of those should require a by-election, I don't see what abuse or grey area you're seeing here. If somebody runs for a seat and wins under a banner of a party but then falls out of favour with that party they should have to immediately seek a by-election.

Honestly, this and the whole speaker having to represent a constituency farce makes me take a very strange look when British people criticise the American electoral college for being anti-democratic given their own system democratic deficits. 

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

You have simply restated a view that most will not agree with.

I do agree with you that the Speaker should have a "symbolic" rather than real constituency - but the argument has been it benefits them to still do some "ordinary" political work.

I'm just not understanding what abuse you could forsee happening, could you give me an example of a situation where the rule would be problematic ?

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Since you mentioned the Speaker, do they do constituency work?

Since they are still constituency MPs, very much so.

yeah and that's one of the biggest problems I have with the Westminster system, being an MP is a full-time job and so is being a minister. They are both compensated as such and most MP's treat it as such. We can't expect someone to be doing two full-time jobs without that affecting their perfomance. In most cases, the job of a constituency MP for a minister is in effect outsourced to a staffer but that is neither democratic nor fair.I don't agree with Cummings at all but his idea of parachuting ministers into the house of lords has some merit to it.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

You have simply restated a view that most will not agree with.

I do agree with you that the Speaker should have a "symbolic" rather than real constituency - but the argument has been it benefits them to still do some "ordinary" political work.

I'm just not understanding what abuse you could forsee happening, could you give me an example of a situation where the rule would be problematic ?

A party could easily abuse that to get rid of an internal opponent.

Well all major parties have rule-books setting up administrative processes required to expel a member of the political party. MPs who feel that they were being purged can apply for judicial review to ensure that the proper administrative procedures and due process were offered to the MP before they were removed. This is well-established legal ground and is precisely what happened here when a party tried to use it in bad faith (and as a result of the attempt have never held a single seat since while the expelled MP was continuously re-elected until 2011)


https://twwst.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/looking-backwards-chiam-see-tongs-legacy-in-the-sdp-part-1/

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Honestly, this and the whole speaker having to represent a constituency farce makes me take a very strange look when British people criticise the American electoral college for being anti-democratic given their own system democratic deficits. 

Most British people who are even knowledgeable enough to criticise the Electoral College probably maintain the transferrable criticisms when discussing the UK's First Past The Post Electoral System, particularly if those criticisms include disproportionality. In any case, given the fact the Speaker does do constituency work and their role doesn't prevent them from doing so, that's hardly an equally significant aspect of British democracy compared to the criticisms of the US electoral college. Where the criticism does not apply is the adherence to the democratic principle of one person, one vote, when you take into account the existence of ridiculous bodies like the Senate that further distort the Electoral College with no major benefit for representation as a whole and good governance. Anyway, why shouldn't British people be allowed to criticise other countries' systems?

I'm not saying you aren't allowed to criticize other systems but your system shares all the essential democratic deficits of the American system(of course with the major exception that your upper house is powerless unlike dominant in the American system). Your FPTP constituency system shares the same flaw that a party can win a majority of the votes but still loose an election as was seen in 1951. Politicians really only have to win voters in marginal counsitneyc and can freely ignore safe seats without consequences.

And the main issue with the speaker system is that it arbitrarily disenfranchises a constituency from having any say in the national election results similar to how Washington DC is disenfranchised something that can be trivially fixed. Denying almost 100k people the ability to vote is a rather large democratic deficit espeicaly when there seems to be no real justification beyond tradition.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

A reminder that this "alliance" includes the Northern Independence Party - an outfit run by an online s***poster based in Brighton. After its launch last year, the very online left was full of dizzying stuff about how it would eviscerate Labour in its "Northern heartlands" in the same way the SNP had done in Scotland - and then at the Hartlepool byelection its candidate (a former Labour MP who has in the past few days been urging all left wing people to leave a party that currently appears to be poised to take actual power for the first time in years) came two votes ahead of a confirmed paedoph

Even funnier was their feud with the moderators of /r/ukpolitics as well as the teenager running the Britain elects twitter account.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

A reminder that this "alliance" includes the Northern Independence Party - an outfit run by an online s***poster based in Brighton. After its launch last year, the very online left was full of dizzying stuff about how it would eviscerate Labour in its "Northern heartlands" in the same way the SNP had done in Scotland - and then at the Hartlepool byelection its candidate (a former Labour MP who has in the past few days been urging all left wing people to leave a party that currently appears to be poised to take actual power for the first time in years) came two votes ahead of a confirmed paedoph

Even funnier was their feud with the moderators of /r/ukpolitics as well as the teenager running the Britain elects twitter account.

I want to know more about these feuds.

They had a disastrous AMA and then whined about in on twitter.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AMADisasters/comments/mqbs4s/press_officer_for_the_northern_independence_party/
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1375430735532847104
and they also continuously attacked the elections map UK twitter user as an establishment tool for aggreating them under other or something else petty.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

An unrelated point- I was listening to a podcast history of Harold Wilson and realised that I forgot that Attlee was party leader in 1955 when he was 72. Did he stay purely to stop Herbert Morrison from becoming Leader?

It's strange how much of the themes of THIGMOO history seem to come up in the 1950s history of the party. 

I mean Yes Minister made a joke about that back in the 80's so it's hardly a new theory.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

I am reliably informed that he's another former LibDem supporter - a full-blown Orange Booker, apparently.

Wut ? how do you go from that to being an online fringe left wing sh**tposter ?

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Left-wing is more of a vibe for this type than a meaningful ideological position.

But Orange Bookers never occupied a left-wing vibe, more both parties suck centerism.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Tory Press is getting incredibly desperate if this is the kind of stuff they are resorting too.


https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/1555798/keir-starmer-handwriting-analysis-labour-leader-evg

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

What the left of the party should be doing is campaigning on issues where they have support in both the party and wider public, but where the leadership is (for varying reasons) wary at present. Which yes, means less emphasis on niche foreign policy issues and internal party politicking.

I really do think that a significant proportion of the support base of the left of the party simply doesn't care about that and has simply becomes self-absorbed to the point that they are unable to do such things.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Reshuffle Klaxon!

Stephen Kinnock has been announced as the new shadow immigration minister. He was formally No.2 in the defence team and before that had been in the shadow FCO team. This is an interesting appointment in that he represents a leave seat in South Wales - so I might unkindly suggest he doesn’t have a huge amount of casework experience with immigration and with Yvette as the shadow secretary of state it’s certainly suggest a certain trend about where immigration policy might be going.

His wife is the former Danish PM* and leader of the social democratic party , famous for being the social democratic party to take one of the hardest lines anti-immigration positions for a social democratic party so this has some potential to be a bit amusing


*which is incredibly weird, how can a couple have very active political carrers at the same time in different countries

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

...with Yvette as the shadow secretary of state it’s certainly suggest a certain trend about where immigration policy might be going.

Not necessarily policy (which tends be more stable than widely assumed) but certainly vibes.

I thought Labour tried that in 2015 and it failed miserably.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

...with Yvette as the shadow secretary of state it’s certainly suggest a certain trend about where immigration policy might be going.

Not necessarily policy (which tends be more stable than widely assumed) but certainly vibes.

I thought Labour tried that in 2015 and it failed miserably.

There was a mug, was there not?

I don't actually think it was a major factor in Labour's defeat, though.

And wider public opinion on immigration has changed notably since then.

They literaved carved it into stone "CONTROLS ON IMMIGRATION"