Are transgender people the gender they say they are?

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

In the 'Can a man get pregnant?' thread, 'No' is currently winning by almost the same filibuster-proof margin by which Democrats won the Senate in 2008.

Let's see how the results differ on this liberal, secular forum blog if we rephrase the question.

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

That's not my point. Naturally there are doctors, intimate partners, parents etc, but that's not your position. How do you know what someones birth sex is?

How in your day to day interactions with people do you determine someone's birth sex? Is that something you do with everyone? When is it relevant to you? How do you determine someone is man/woman, male/female other than by how they present to you and what they tell you?

The honest answer is you do accept what they tell you in order to help validate, or correct what you perceive by how they present to you. Birth sex isn't something you can individually determine with each person you meet therefore sociologically it's irrelevant to interactions with people.

If birth sex is important to you, you should doubt everyone who tells you what they are, until they prove what they have between their legs. But that's bordering on sociopathy, so you won't do that either.

So birth sex, on a practical level, doesn't actually matter to you, or me or anyone.

You can argue that “it doesn’t matter if trans men are actually men or not, just don’t be a jerk to people” which is what you’re doing here by saying that since it’s not even possible to know someone’s birth sex 99% of the time, but that’s different than saying “trans men are actually men.”

Why do you care whether they are or not? What difference does it make to you?

Very little, as long as no one actually expects me to consider them men (calling them preferred pronouns/using preferred name is not too much to expect, however).

Why wouldn’t you consider them men? It costs you nothing.

Because I personally believe that gender (to the extent that it exists) is directly connected to sex.

The bolded implies that you believes there's an extent to which gender doesn't exist. We all agree sex exists in nature, but if you believe gender doesn't, even to an extent, then why would you be so insistent on tying the definition of gender to something else, i.e., sex?

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

I'll bite.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the elevation of brain sex for the reasons that discovolante said quite eloquently, but there's enough credibility there that lines up with common trans experiences and research that there's validity in espousing notions of brain sex. A weasely, TransModerate Hero nonanswer, sure, but not as weasely as Dule, who never heard a transgender voice he couldn't ignore, whose notion of personal liberty deliberately does not account for what trans voices say about their experience, who willingly sides with people who are openly hateful of trans people in these arguments, suddenly concern trolling about transgender voices.

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

I'll bite.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the elevation of brain sex for the reasons that discovolante said quite eloquently, but there's enough credibility there that lines up with common trans experiences and research that there's validity in espousing notions of brain sex. A weasely, TransModerate Hero nonanswer, sure, but not as weasely as Dule, who never heard a transgender voice he couldn't ignore, whose notion of personal liberty deliberately does not account for what trans voices say about their experience, who willingly sides with people who are openly hateful of trans people in these arguments, suddenly concern trolling about transgender voices.

You're becoming unhinged. Try responding to what I actually write instead of attempting to ascribe malice where there is none.

There is no evidence in your record to suggest that any concern you have over about what trans voices are saying is a concern taken in good faith.

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

I'll bite.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the elevation of brain sex for the reasons that discovolante said quite eloquently, but there's enough credibility there that lines up with common trans experiences and research that there's validity in espousing notions of brain sex. A weasely, TransModerate Hero nonanswer, sure, but not as weasely as Dule, who never heard a transgender voice he couldn't ignore, whose notion of personal liberty deliberately does not account for what trans voices say about their experience, who willingly sides with people who are openly hateful of trans people in these arguments, suddenly concern trolling about transgender voices.

You're becoming unhinged. Try responding to what I actually write instead of attempting to ascribe malice where there is none.

There is no evidence in your record to suggest that any concern you have over about what trans voices are saying is a concern taken in good faith.

How many times must I reassert that I believe in transgender people's right to surgery, hormones, and other medical treatment before people believe me?

You're comfortable siding with people who very explicitly don't believe in those things without ever looking in the mirror and wondering why you're beloved by that crowd on these issues. Not that I'm a fan of guilt by association.

You liken transgender healthcare to gambling, smoking, voting, and other things we don't allow people legal access to until the age of 18. You're fine with trans people transitioning, but only after they've completed puberty and had the wrong hormone change their bodies in ways that cannot be reversed without tens of thousands of dollars worth of procedures, and some of those changed can't ever be reversed. Gender dysphoria is a medical condition with a medical treatment; you do not advocate for minors with other medical conditions to wait until 18 (assuming they don't die) to receive treatment, but you tell trans people to get f'd and face the dysphoria and the ostracization that comes with completing puberty before transitioning, if they even survive to 18. I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but you clearly do not want to listen to the trans perspective on this vital trans issue that is currently under direct attack in multiple states, you do not want to listen to the trans perspective of why this is not remotely comparable to gambling or smoking and why it's of vital importance to trans people for these forms of healthcare to be available before the completion of puberty. You made up your mind, trans people's perspectives be damned.

But all of a sudden, you claim care about the transgender perspective if it means you can invalidate the argument of another trans person. Tell me now why your concern trolling should be taken in good faith?

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

I fear that doctors and activists are setting up many trans people for failure by implicitly asserting that transitioning will solve their self-image problems, when the other end of that journey may not bring with it the acceptance and recognition they desire.

No doctors or activists say that; they say it will help alleviate the problem, which is true. Literally one of the first things trans people are told by doctors during the consultation process of transitioning is "you know this isn't a magic bullet and you're still going to have dysphoria, right?"

I sincerely hope I'm wrong about this, as I would never wish loneliness or depression upon anyone.

(X) doubt, on account of

Maybe someday gender reassignment will reach levels of technological sophistication that will render this entire debate moot. I hope you understand I'm being honest when I say that day can't come soon enough.

Until we reach that technological sophistication for trans adults, that conversation is already mostly moot for trans youth who are able to start their transition before puberty. If a trans person's body is not ravaged by the process of completing the puberty of their birth sex hormone, if they are able to transition with the hormone of their true gender during the age of puberty, they will not have to experience much of the dysphoria that trans adults will have to face before, during, and after their transition. And they'll save a hell of a lot of money. Trans men won't have to surgically remove their breasts if they never grew. Trans women won't have to zap their skin with lasers if their beards never grew, nor would they have to deal with Adam's apples (or deep voices that are unaffected by hormones after puberty), male-width shoulders, protuding skulls, receded hairline, or other effectivrly permanent effects of puberty that both cause immense dysphoria and visibility out women as being trans.

Note that I'm not advocating for genital surgery for minors. But, aside from genitals, the parts of a transition that cause the most dysphoria and cost the most money to attempt to revert would be totally unnecessary for trans people to deal with if puberty didn't do those things to their bodies in the first place. If hormone therapy start before the completion of puberty, the hormones do all the work except for genital reconstruction (though trans men do grow a quasi-penis; you may take issue with the notion of a feminine penis, but Googleimage search a trans man's clitoris and tell me a masculine clit isn't real). If transitioning starts after puberty, hormones only do so much.

You say that you hope for the day to come where transitioning technology is more sophisticated, but you want to restrict trans people's access to the most sophisticated, effective, and affordable transitioning technology available: the ability to start hormone replacement therapy before completion of puberty.

I don't think people are generally happy if they feel they're being lied to, and they especially aren't happy when others clearly aren't backing their words of support up with genuine action. In this way, I believe that my pushback on this subject is for the best. The lives and mental health of transgender people should not depend upon the opinions of people like me.

Trans people deal with enough sh!t, some of which is life-threatening, on a daily basis that we don't need to be misgendered on top of that — for me it's more of an "are you f-ing sh!tting me" type thing than anything. I have a relatively thick skin with regards to pronouns. For me, even though I know perfectly well that most people do not view me as a real woman, but at least I'm referred to by my pronouns, it saves me from that great annoyance on top of the more severe parts of the trans experience I have to deal with — and when I'm gendered correctly in a context where I wasn't expecting it, you better believe it makes my day. Of course it's different for everyone. But you're not some brave crusader for advocating that people stop using the correct pronouns for trans people, and stuff like that is why I don't give you the benefit of the doubt when you say "I hope you understand I hope more sophisticated advancements in trans healthcare come soon."

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

You say that you hope for the day to come where transitioning technology is more sophisticated, but you want to restrict trans people's access to the most sophisticated, effective, and affordable transitioning technology available: the ability to start hormone replacement therapy before completion of puberty.

I'll just respond to this: I said I didn't oppose puberty blockers, so this is not an accurate representation of my position. I don't know how doctors represent these surgeries and hormones to minors, but again, I question the degree to which a minor can weigh the options and give valid, informed consent.

You oppose true hormone replacement therapy, though; i.e., testosterone for transmasculine people and estrogen for transfeminine people. You say you hope to see the say where trans healthcare is more sophisticated, but oppose the most sophisticate, effective, and affordable tool we have, which is HRT before the completion of puberty. If you think a minor can consent to puberty blockers, it's inconsistent to say that they can't consent to HRT. This is a medical treatment for a medical condition, not a recreational activity. Trans people are trans before they're 18.

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

HRT has permanent effects on the body, whereas puberty blockers only have debatable debilitating side effects.

Puberty has permanent effects on the body. If you're fine with forcing trans people to go through with puberty and deal with those permanent effects for the rest of their lives, then I don't believe you when you say you long for the day when trans healthcare is more sophisticated, and I don't think you're arguing in good faith when you start talking about trans voices to other trans people.

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

The terms of the discussion were largely imposed on both of us by OPs basically looking to stir up drama, so it's not surprising that this is what happened.

I'm not imposing terms of discussion on anyone. I made this thread because of how many people voted No in the 'Can a man get pregnant' thread. I suspected that fewer people would be open about their disbelief in trans people's genders if the question were phrased more broadly, so I made this thread to compare what people say they believe (this thread) to what people really believe (the other thread, which I didn't make).

Drama only started because transphobes can't help themselves but rub it in our faces. When they do that, I am going to respond, as will other people. Sue me, call me a turbo wokescold, whatever.

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

That said, it's undeniable that the knee-jerk over-the-top outrage toward anyone who expresses anything other than full agreement with your perspective isn't moving the conversation forward.

Disagree with me all you want, but what I say isn't over-the-top or knee-jerk, first of all. I don't care if people disagree with me and I'm not arguing with the vast majority of people who disagree with me, whether they disagree slightly or fully with me. I argue with people who are ignorant of the facts and the trans perspective, people who are outright bigoted, or fair-weather people who claim not to be bigoted while being more harsh towards facts and the trans perspective than they are towards the outright bigots. It's a message board, it's a topic I'm passionate about, knowledgeable of, and personally affected by, so I post in these topics. How over-the-top!

Besides, I'm not the one bumping these threads when one of them goes dormant for a week or so. The people who do that are generally the ones doing it so they can reiterate how silly the transgenders are with their pronouns and their childhood mutilations.