Pope grovels to Muslims

[dazzleman]

The Pope has unfortunately done the equivalent of giving into a childs tantrum in the supermarket and bought it sweets. Even the apology for causing offense (though what doesn't cause offense to Muslims these days) does not appear to be enough for some.

I agree.  There's no reason to apologize to those people.  They're prone to violence, and they're proving it with their behavior.

It's hilarious how those people expect to treated with such sensitivity, when they provide no such sensitivity to others.  It's perfectly OK for muslim 'leaders' to call for the extermination of Jews and Christians, and for the destruction of whole countries.  That's perfectly OK, but some little comment that suggests they might be prone to violence (which they clearly are) makes them erupt in.....violence.

[dazzleman]

Well, at least Ratzinger apoligized for his dumb comments.

Firstly, his name is Benedict the 16th.

Secondly, why should he have apologized for making a quote taken in context during an academic lecture?

Because he is a representative of the evilness and intollerance of the West and Christianity... particularly Catholicism.

Besides, anyone who declares Islam to be intollerent is only askign to be punished, right?

I am frankly trying to understand the ideological relativism of the Left. How, on the one hand, they can claim ... sickeningly, but correctly ... that a movie made of the murder of a sitting president is free speech, and must not be infringed; but on the other, demands remonstrances for incorrect speech such as the pope's university address (which, BTW, was given as a means to spur dialogue between the two religions).

It makes little sense to me, so I'm actually curious as to jfern's reply.

The pope is free to say whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to try to start the next Crusades.

It's the muslims who want to start the next Crusades, not the Christians.  You might just as well say Poland or Czechoslovakia started World War II.

[dazzleman]

The Pope's remarks were hypocritical. It's not like bad things never happened under Christianity. That aside, the Arabs were providing progress in fields like mathematics and astronomy whilst Europeans were busy disembowling and beheading each other in the middle ages.

So what you're saying is that what happened 500 years ago is more relevant and important than what is happening today?

You're falling into the classic liberal trap of using past injustice and/or indiscretion to justify more horrific behavior today by the supposed 'victims' of such past actions.

I think enough time has passed since the crusades that the muslims should f'ing get over it by name.  If they spent more time dealing with current problems rather than escaping into contrived fury over long-past events, maybe they'd find themselves in a better position today.

[dazzleman]

However, most of their problems (and anger) are in one way or another related to Western policies, and I'm not just speaking of the colonial era of yore, but what's happening right now in Iraq, Lebanon, etc.

Now there's where you're wrong, Mike.  What they are saying is making them angry is just a convenient excuse for their own failure to confront their own problems, and do anything to improve their own lives.  They find it so much easier to blame other people for their problems.  I don't buy into that whole line of thinking at all.  I'm surprised to see a smart guy like you swallowing that propaganda whole.

As far as your comment about not saying anything to add to the current strife, that is simply appeasement of evil.  Let me get this straight -- it's perfectly OK for muslims to advocate the extermination of Christians and Jews as well as mass violence against non-muslims, but nobody should say anything mildly critical of islam?  Why should we play the game by their rules?  You're just saying that they're the irrational lunatic that everybody should try to avoid angering.  Well, they're already angry, at a whole host of problems that are of their own making, but that they want to blame other people for.  Appeasing them will only make them attack us more.  There is no pacifying these people; they have to be confronted.  The pope said nothing wrong; if anything, what he said was mild.  The violent muslim reaction more than proves him right.

[dazzleman]

And it's not as if their anger is new either Dazzle. They have hated the west since the middle ages and have continually tried to conquer Europe well into the 1500s.

They keep updating their excuses, but you're pretty much right.  People who are unwilling or unable to get out of their own way are usually very angry, and looking for somebody else to blame is a great way of accepting any responsibility for improving your own situation.  We see it domestically and on the foreign stage.  Pathetic, really, and the encouragement of this thinking is very harmful.

[dazzleman]

However, most of their problems (and anger) are in one way or another related to Western policies, and I'm not just speaking of the colonial era of yore, but what's happening right now in Iraq, Lebanon, etc.

Now there's where you're wrong, Mike.  What they are saying is making them angry is just a convenient excuse for their own failure to confront their own problems, and do anything to improve their own lives.  They find it so much easier to blame other people for their problems.  I don't buy into that whole line of thinking at all.  I'm surprised to see a smart guy like you swallowing that propaganda whole.

As far as your comment about not saying anything to add to the current strife, that is simply appeasement of evil.  Let me get this straight -- it's perfectly OK for muslims to advocate the extermination of Christians and Jews as well as mass violence against non-muslims, but nobody should say anything mildly critical of islam?  Why should we play the game by their rules?  You're just saying that they're the irrational lunatic that everybody should try to avoid angering.  Well, they're already angry, at a whole host of problems that are of their own making, but that they want to blame other people for.  Appeasing them will only make them attack us more.  There is no pacifying these people; they have to be confronted.  The pope said nothing wrong; if anything, what he said was mild.  The violent muslim reaction more than proves him right.

So what the westen powers have done in the middle east has nothing to do with the rise of radical Islam? You're more deluded than them if you believe this.

No, I don't believe what the western powers did in the middle east has nothing to do with the situation there now.

But I think that the middle east was on the skids before the western powers arrived, and that they wouldn't necessarily be better off if the western powers had never been involved there.

Their central problem is within themselves, and they're projecting it onto others.  Changes in our policies aren't going to improve their situation because they have no will to improve themselves.  They'd much rather blame others for their problems.  And they'd be doing that regardless of anything we did or didn't do.