Pope grovels to Muslims

[GMantis]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5353774.stm
Text of Pope's apology 
The following is the text of Pope Benedict XVI's remarks regretting causing offence to Muslims in his 12 September speech in the Bavarian city of Regensburg.
 Dear Brothers and Sisters,

The pastoral visit which I recently made to Bavaria was a deep spiritual experience, bringing together personal memories linked to places well known to me and pastoral initiatives towards an effective proclamation of the Gospel for today.

I thank God for the interior joy which he made possible, and I am also grateful to all those who worked hard for the success of this Pastoral Visit.

As is the custom, I will speak more of this during next Wednesday's general audience.

At this time, I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims.

These in fact were a quotation from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought.

Yesterday, the Cardinal Secretary of State published a statement in this regard in which he explained the true meaning of my words.

I hope that this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address, which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with great mutual respect.
                                                   ~~~
How the mighty have fallen...
 

[Mr. Morden]

I'm a tolerant guy, and give Islam the benefit of the doubt, but I find this quote from the Pope/Islam controversy to be hilarious:

"Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence,"--Pakistan Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam.

I wonder if she understands the irony of that statement.

[afleitch]

The Pope has unfortunately done the equivalent of giving into a childs tantrum in the supermarket and bought it sweets. Even the apology for causing offense (though what doesn't cause offense to Muslims these days) does not appear to be enough for some.

[J. J.]

"These in fact were a quotation from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought. "

Come on.  Give the Pope a break.  He wanted to illustrate intolerance of Islam by the Christian Community throughout the middle ages.  He not agreeing with a 14th Century Byzantine Emperor.

[dazzleman]

The Pope has unfortunately done the equivalent of giving into a childs tantrum in the supermarket and bought it sweets. Even the apology for causing offense (though what doesn't cause offense to Muslims these days) does not appear to be enough for some.

I agree.  There's no reason to apologize to those people.  They're prone to violence, and they're proving it with their behavior.

It's hilarious how those people expect to treated with such sensitivity, when they provide no such sensitivity to others.  It's perfectly OK for muslim 'leaders' to call for the extermination of Jews and Christians, and for the destruction of whole countries.  That's perfectly OK, but some little comment that suggests they might be prone to violence (which they clearly are) makes them erupt in.....violence.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

In case anyone is interested Muslim Brotherhood (one of the most influential Islamist groups out there, main opposition to the regime in Egypt etc) has accepted the Pope's apology.

[minionofmidas]

He`s done the right thing.

[12th Doctor]

I'm a tolerant guy, and give Islam the benefit of the doubt, but I find this quote from the Pope/Islam controversy to be hilarious:

"Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence,"--Pakistan Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam.

I wonder if she understands the irony of that statement.

LOL... I said something very similar to Bono on AIM.  Funny to acctually hear someone make the point.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Well, at least Ratzinger apoligized for his dumb comments.

[Storebought]

Well, at least Ratzinger apoligized for his dumb comments.

Firstly, his name is Benedict the 16th.

Secondly, why should he have apologized for making a quote taken in context during an academic lecture?

[12th Doctor]

Well, at least Ratzinger apoligized for his dumb comments.

Firstly, his name is Benedict the 16th.

Secondly, why should he have apologized for making a quote taken in context during an academic lecture?

Because he is a representative of the evilness and intollerance of the West and Christianity... particularly Catholicism.

Besides, anyone who declares Islam to be intollerent is only askign to be punished, right?

[Storebought]

Well, at least Ratzinger apoligized for his dumb comments.

Firstly, his name is Benedict the 16th.

Secondly, why should he have apologized for making a quote taken in context during an academic lecture?

Because he is a representative of the evilness and intollerance of the West and Christianity... particularly Catholicism.

Besides, anyone who declares Islam to be intollerent is only askign to be punished, right?

I am frankly trying to understand the ideological relativism of the Left. How, on the one hand, they can claim ... sickeningly, but correctly ... that a movie made of the murder of a sitting president is free speech, and must not be infringed; but on the other, demands remonstrances for incorrect speech such as the pope's university address (which, BTW, was given as a means to spur dialogue between the two religions).

It makes little sense to me, so I'm actually curious as to jfern's reply.

[GMantis]

He shouldn't have made this quotation if he didn't intend to stand with it. The pope should be knowledgeable enough to know that such remark will insult Muslims, and probably shouldn't have said it, but to apologize now just gives more power to radical Islamists.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I don't understand why the Pope would even mention Islam publicly, unless he is pointing out that Christianity has had it share of misuse through the shedding of blood.  But that would hit kinda close to home for the Catholics.

If I were the Pope, I would only bring up other religions in an attempt to point them to the one true light, Jesus Christ.  The Pope needs to find some courage and proclaim the truth boldly.

[Sam Spade]

AFAIC, the Pope was absolutely correct and should not have relented.  His remark about the nature of Islam is so correct, it has made my signature, a true proof of fact.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The Pope sucks, but Muslims proved what he said correct.

How ridiculous is it basically say "Islam is not violent, and we'll kill you if you say so?"

[AkSaber]

It's hilarious how those people expect to treated with such sensitivity, when they provide no such sensitivity to others.  It's perfectly OK for muslim 'leaders' to call for the extermination of Jews and Christians, and for the destruction of whole countries.  That's perfectly OK, but some little comment that suggests they might be prone to violence (which they clearly are) makes them erupt in.....violence.

I've been feeling exactly the same way!!!

They can dance in the streets when the World Trade Center was being attacked, celebrate when Hamas, Hezbollah or whoever the hell else murders a bus full of Israelis, and advocate the destruction of Israel.

But if they are even the slighest bit upset, well then we all have to stop what we're doing and be apologetic to them and make sure we do everything we can to mend their sensitive and fragile feelings.

[jerusalemcar5]

AFAIC, the Pope was absolutely correct and should not have relented.  His remark about the nature of Islam is so correct, it has made my signature, a true proof of fact.

Actually, Muhammad and Islam united Arabia and ended centuries of horrific violence and allowed peace to reign, though he did do it by sword.  Christianity on the other hand also used violence to spread their religion, but created a divise warring world in place of where there had been some stability.

The Pope is rather ignorant and I think people look and see a million Muslims (is it even that much) angry and violent and say "Muslims are prone to violence" ignoring the other 1 billion Muslims.

[??????????]

The Pope was exactly correct of course. Islam has already proved itself to be the religion of hate and death.

[Michael Z]

The Pope's remarks were hypocritical. It's not like bad things never happened under Christianity. That aside, the Arabs were providing progress in fields like mathematics and astronomy whilst Europeans were busy disembowling and beheading each other in the middle ages.

[J-Mann]

The Pope's remarks were hypocritical. It's not like bad things never happened under Christianity. That aside, the Arabs were providing progress in fields like mathematics and astronomy whilst Europeans were busy disembowling and beheading each other in the middle ages.

Again, you've focused on the one quote he made in the context of an entire speech and, in reaction, seek to silence on man from speaking simply because of the sins of Catholics past. That's an unreasonable standard that you wouldn't want to be held to; just like we're urged not to consider all Muslims to be terrorist, we can't expect the current Pope not to denounce extremism simply because Catholics used to be the ones who were the extremists.

Ancient Arab progress is admirable, to be sure, but it does not excuse any current disregard for freedom of speech or give them a free pass to practice religious fanaticism at the expense of innocents. Extremists deserve to be called out for what they are.

Besides, the Pope's speech was not aimed in any way at denouncing Islam -- his quote was in the much wider context of his overall speech, which used that 600-year-old debate between a Muslim scholar and a Byzantine emperor to highlight earlier cautioning against religious extremism and violence. It was a small point made to highlight the folly of extremism. The Muslim reaction (and silent acceptance by the majority of Islam) is proving his point better than any speech ever could.

[Michael Z]

The Pope's remarks were hypocritical. It's not like bad things never happened under Christianity. That aside, the Arabs were providing progress in fields like mathematics and astronomy whilst Europeans were busy disembowling and beheading each other in the middle ages.

Again, you've focused on the one quote he made in the context of an entire speech

Again? It's the first time I've done it. Unless you're referring to others who've done the same.

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Oooh, I am seeking to silence a man. Lest we forget that he is merely the representative of all Catholics and officially God's representative on Earth. This is not some guy in a bar in downtown Portland we're talking about here.

And I'm not "seeking to silence" him. Don't be ridiculous. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of his words. That's not telling him to shut up. He can say as he please, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't misrepresent my viewpoint just for the sheer sake of putting your own point across.

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No, but then I'm not the Pope, ergo I wouldn't expect my words to be held in high esteem, as well they shouldn't.

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He didn't denounce extremism, he called the founder of Islam essentially uncivilised. That's not one and the same thing.

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Precisely! On both sides, hence what I said. Both religions, Islam and Christianity, are prone to spouting extremist fervour, as they have done in the past (hence my comment).

Frankly, most of the points you're making here bear absolutely no relevance to what I said (in fact, in the above case our viewpoints intertwine without you even noticing), and equally, I don't think you're necessarily in a position to judge my exact and precise understanding of his speech solely on one or two paragraphs I wrote. You're jumping to conclusions, in other words.

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I didn't say that, but then I suspect you're making a more general point here which doesn't necessarily refer to my quoted extract above.

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That's a fair point.

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The problem with the reaction is - how representative a picture are we getting?

[Umengus]

The Pope was exactly correct of course. Islam has already proved itself to be the religion of hate and death.

agree. Islam is a threat for the Civilisation.

[J-Mann]

Again? It's the first time I've done it. Unless you're referring to others who've done the same.

Yes -- in reference to others who have made the same argument (again meaning more that I'm saying this again, just in a different thread).

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Perhaps not in so many words, but the argument of hypocrisy so often states that one has "no room to talk." I think he has every right and all the room to talk against extremism; though specific theological arguments will persist, the Catholic Church and Christianity as a whole has moved beyond extremism, gut reactions and violence to solve its problems.

The quote in question was in a wider context warning against an extremism that, yes, used to plague the Catholic Church. Can't that church's leader legitimately warn others not to fall down the same path? It seems to me that it would only be hypocrisy if the Pope was speaking against Muslim extremism, then having his Swiss guards go blow up Mosques.

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The quote itself may have labled Mohammed's tactics uncivilized, but the quote is only directly applicable to Benedict if you don't appreciate the context of the speech. It was an example that the debate over religious extremism and tactics has been going on for a long time ... the quote in question was part of a debate between a Muslim scholar and a Byzantine emperor. Those points are conveniently lost on the media covering the story.

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Fortunately, Christianity has moved beyond the type of fervour that so often grips the Muslim world. Humanity does not have to be self-loathing because of the sins of its past; we evolve, we grow and we move on, recognizing mistakes in our past and warning against them in the future ... ideally, anyway. I personally think it's a shame that a miniscule part of an academic lecture has been blown so far out of proportion and, in the process, making the very point the Pope was trying to make in the first place.

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Relevance aside, I'm not seeking to be the exact opposite of you on this issue, but to expand and diverge off of points you made. Yes, I noticed our points are similar in places ... sorry to "judge" you, but don't post, especially without full explanations, if you can't handle a response. (I know you can -- and did just now, for the most part -- Michael, from my time on here before -- I'd just like to see everyone drop the oversensitive "don't judge me" crap. It's easy to misinterpret someone when they only post a sentence or two -- response should be expected in order to more fully understand a position.)

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Always difficult to tell; however, I haven't seen any prominent Muslims come forward to denounce the furor that is growing over this. Silence is acquiescence.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The problem with the reaction is - how representative a picture are we getting?

Very unrepresentative o/c. Hell, even the Muslim Brotherhood have accepted his apology, and most Muslim organisations over here did so before he even made a public apology.

But clearly the actions of a few nutters in Palestine are representative of one sixth of the World's population...