Should auto insurance be mandatory?

[dazzleman]

hhhmm. Im torn on this one. Someone needs to prove thier point to me, cause im not sure.

I think auto insurance should be mandatory.

Operating a car is tremendously risky, both to the driver and to the others who happen to be in his/her path.

In order to protect those unknown people who happen to cross the path of many drivers every day, in the best possible way, those drivers must be able to handle the potential financial consequences of their actions behind the wheel.

Some states allow a person to post a bond with the commissioner of motor vehicles, in lieu of insurance.  In either case, if a person hits your car or, worse, injures you, you have a right to expect some type of compensation from that person.  Insurance allows this to happen if the person who hit you is unable to provide compensation on his/her own.

There is a more subtle effect, too, in the sense that the knowledge that irresponsible driving will cost you financially will lead most people to be better drivers.  Good drivers without a lot of tickets or accidents will pay less for insurance than those who go around hitting things or people (though I shouldn't define 'good drivers' as those who don't get tickets since I do get tickets on occasion ).  A big part of the cost of tickets is not the fine, but the added insurance cost a driver may get whacked with for 3 years (though I have through some stroke of luck avoided this with all my tickets -- you can if you are lucky and know how to play the system right).

In any case, I think it would be chaos to allow people to operate vehicles that can easily cause hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage, without requiring them to put in place some mechanism to cover the cost of any damage they may do.

[dazzleman]

Yes. If you knew how many uninsured mexicans are driving around here with no insurance and who are lousy drivers you wouldn't blame the state for making us carry insurance. Its also good to carry uninsured insurance as well.

I completely agree, States.

BTW, how's everything going, man?  We haven't spoken in a while.  Who are you going for in the NFL playoffs?  Of course, I'm going for the Pats.

[dazzleman]

I couldn't care less where the person who damages my car gets the money, as long as I get my car fixed. So, either make having insurance mandatory or make the person responsible be forced to sell off their stuff to pay.

sometimes you get a better deal when they don't have insurance.  My buddy Kevin got hit by a guy and he said the guy was all nervous and didn't want to involve the authorities.  Gave Kevin a personal check large enough to get his car repaired and still had several hundred dollars left over.  Of course, you can't always count on the other guy having that kind of liquidity.  And, the requirement probably does free up our small claims court to some degree, so they can get on with other business.  This may ultimately lower our tax burden.  That I don't think it should be mandatory is based more on principle than on practicality.  I find that very often principle and practical considerations oppose one another.

Since I started driving in 1978, I have had two accidents -- one in 1980 that was not my fault, and one in 2000 that was my fault.

In the 2000 accident, which was very minor, I paid the guy I hit for the damage, including about $150 extra.  I wanted to make it worth his while not to go through the insurance company, and to sign a waiver about the accident.

At that time, I had a recent speeding ticket on my record, and I was afraid my insurance company would really jack me up if I had a claim filed against me and they also discovered I had a recent ticket.

angus, I think you've gotten a good number of tickets, IIRC.  Have they ever affected your insurance rates?

[dazzleman]

they did for a while.  My premiums were pretty high.  I had 29 in a two-year period according to one judge who placed me on driving probation for a year.  I watched my speed very carefully during that year.  Eventually, I got to the point where I'd gone 7 years without getting a moving violation.  More accurately, I finally lasted 7 years without being cited in the same state which issued my licence.  I still get tickets from time to time.  Got one about a month ago, and one about 12 months before that, but have been careful not to get one by a trooper or city official in the state in which I'm licensed to drive, so officially I still get the State Farm "good driving record" discount. 

This doesn't always work.  In New England, as I recall, there's a data-sharing agreement.  If you get a ticket by a RI trooper, the CT authorities will be made aware of it, and your premium will be affected.  If you get cited in Wyoming, however, you're probably okay.

Dude, you had 29 tickets in a 2-year period?  You're my idol, man.

Seriously, though, I didnt' think a guy could get that many tickets if he tried.  Were they all for speeding, or more serious stuff?

You're right -- getting your tickets out of state is key.  I almost always seem to get tickets in my home state, since I don't drive out of state that much, though by some miracle, I haven't gotten a ticket in a few years.

Where did you get your most recent ticket, and what did they nail you for?

[dazzleman]

all class B misdemeanors (speeding, failure to stop, etc.)  I have so far never been convicted of a class A misdemeanor (e.g. DWI or mary jane possession) or a felony (rape or murder), although I was once charged with DWI.  That's what lawyers are for.  We may badmouth democrats, but when you need one you're glad they exist.  my impression is that drugs, murder, rape don't affect your auto insurance rates anyway.  only moving violations, including DWI, do that.  But I could be wrong.

last ticket was in Waskom, Texas on the LA/TX border.  My wife told me she felt bad feng shui there, actually.  She's a tad spiritual, and though I'm not a "believer" I find that I live better when I follow the advice of them.  know what I mean?

Actually, yes, I do know what you mean.  So she warned you beforehand that she had a bad vibe, you didn't listen, and you got popped?  Interesting.  How fast were you going?

I really can't accept your point about lawyers/Democrats.  I don't consider it a societal good that a person who's driving drunk escapes the punishment prescribed by the law, however desirable that outcome may be to the individual in question (and I speak as one who has 'made mistakes' in my life ).  I came very close to getting busted for DUI once.  I was much luckier than I deserved to be.  And it would have been the last thing I needed at that time, since I was looking for a job, and had only recently acquired two speeding tickets within ten minutes of each other.  This was a number of years ago.

[dazzleman]

99 in a 70 zone.  218 dollars.

Ethical point taken.  Another example is the many times I've been pulled over by cops in third-world countries for flouting their laws, palmed them a US twenty, and rode away free.  I'm not talking about "la mordida" either.  I mean some times when I was just punch drunk, running red lights and such, blatantly flouting laws, and bribing cops.  OECD country tourists should be subject to the same strictures as locals.  In fact, they are, it's just that locals are not likely to be able to let go of a 20 that easily, and the cops are underpaid in many societies and therefore will "negotiate" 

The DWI to which I referred was in the USA though, and in the greater universal sense I was guilty.  My relief at getting off the charges since I was able to afford a good attorney outweighed my personal sense of guilt. 

But I cannot deny that these are examples of economic injustices.  The system is no doubt broken in a real sense, and should be fixed.  I am only glad that it wasn't yet fixed when I went through my rebellious years.  Sad, but true.

You can make the same argument, dazzleman, about the out of state ticket phenomenon.  Is it really fair that we should get the good driver discount when we apparently aren't really, by definition, good drivers?

I don't expect the system to be perfect, just to have the right intentions and move things in the right direction.

The out-of-state ticket thing is just an anomaly that fell through the cracks and continues to.  Honestly, I'm surprised, given the level of automation and computerization today, that this hole hasn't been plugged.

As far as the economic effect of the system, the big loophole here is that a particular monetary fine means different things to different people.  When I was 18, I would have been sweating bullets over a $218 ticket like you just today, and today it wouldn't faze me at all.  Finland attempts to address this by tying traffic fines to income, but really there's no perfect system.  There's no way to make every individual feel an intended penalty the same way, and with the same intensity.

On the 'good driver' thing, I don't necessarily equate good driving with a lack of tickets, nor bad driving with tickets.  Some of the best drivers I know are guys who push the envelope a little, get tickets on occasion, but have great skills and pay close attention to their driving.  OTOH, I know some who have terrible skills, pay no attention to the road, but drive fairly slowly and somehow never bring themselves to the attention of law enforcement.  I actually think that fast drivers are often better drivers, because they put more effort and attention into driving and enjoy it, as opposed to people with poorly developed skills who are to fearful/incompetent to take any risks.

So I feel no guilt about having the 'good driver' discount, despite a number of past tickets.  You shouldn't either, if you don't have accidents.  That's really the key.

[dazzleman]

dazzleman, is there a way to plead poverty when dealing with traffic tickets.  if any state would have such of thing, it owuld have to be a liberal new england state.

ive heard that you can appeal parking tickets with a claim of poverty and get it dismissed (never tried it though).

Hah, I don't know.  To be honest, I think the opposite effect takes place in traffic court.

Keep in mind, as you know already I'm sure, that Connecticut is very class-conscious, and generally speaking, your address gives away your economic class to a large degree to people who know the area.

So I went to court well-dressed, with an address in one of the more affluent towns, while some of the others went to court wearing jeans and t-shirts, with an address in a lower economic class city.

Generally, those people got whacked harder than I did.  I got the minimum fine, and I think a lot of it was that I was well-dressed, well-spoken, polite, etc.  The state's attorneys are generally educated people with at least some money, and they'll be more likely to cut some slack to a person that they can relate to more closely, as opposed to somebody who doesn't know enough to look decent when he shows up for court, and can't put a sentence together.

When I was there, I did get a good laugh over a case that preceded mine.  It was a wild-looking young girl, there with a furiously-looking middle-aged man (apparently her father).  She pleaded poverty, so the state's attorney told her that she could either substitute community service for the fine, or go onto a payment plan.  Apparently, the old man was trying to teach her a lesson, and refused to pay her fine for her.  Good for him.

So there's your answer Wally -- you can do community service instead of paying a fine.  How'd you like to try that?

[dazzleman]

community service is probably a better idea anyway.  maybe we could get those piss puddles mopped up in the subway stations. 

as it stands now, all of the dollars collected in traffic fines go into the city coffers never to be seen again (unless you are a corrupt politico).

ive never gotten a moving violation in my life.  i have received a couple of parking tickets.  these new england cops are really uptight about parking and have a very liberal definition of a parking 'violation'.

Actually, I think for more serious violations, community service is a better idea.  Many people value their time more than a relatively small sum of their money.  I know I'd be more likely to reform if I got punished with community service as opposed to, say, a $200 fine.

The problem is that community service costs money to administer, while fines bring in money.  It's a lot easier to pop a guy for $100 or so and send him on his way than deal with having to enforce a more drawn-out punishment like community service.

So no moving violations, Wally?  You'll be my next candidate for sainthood, man.   I don't think any of my friends could make that claim; as far as I can remember, every single one of my friends has received multiple tickets down through the years, so I find it unusual that a guy in his late 20s hasn't gotten a ticket.  Those were my prime ticket-getting years.

This may sound crazy, but parking tickets piss me off a lot more than speeding tickets.  With a speeding ticket, I feel as if I've gotten something in return -- the pleasure of driving fast -- and that therefore I'm not being punished in vain.  My mentality is that I like to speed, and will have to pay for the privilege occasionally.  I accept that.  But parking is nothing but aggravation, and I get no enjoyment from illegal parking.  So I hate parking tickets; I feel as if I'm just throwing money away when I get them, which is seldom.  Strange mentality I know, but I learned long ago that each of controls, to a large extent, how we respond to punishment and how it affects us.  It's all in the mind, to a very large degree.

[dazzleman]

dazzleman, werent you the one that said you sometimes speed through the toll booth to avoid paying the toll?

have you been caught doing that.  i would have figured that they would have cameras there to photograph your license plate.

Yes, ha, you're right.  My disreputable past is coming back to bite me...

I used to run through toll booths sometimes without paying, just for fun.  They were 25 cent tolls, and I always had the money in my pocket.  It was just more fun to break the rules than to play by them.  I never got busted; there were no cameras for that type of thing back then.  I wouldn't have cared very much if I had gotten busted.  Those tolls that I blasted through were removed in 1994, so I don't do it anymore.   Actually, I stopped doing that well before then, and I would hope that I wouldn't still be doing that stuff, though the urge to do things like that does hit me occasionally, usually when I'm around people who have been prone to crazy behavior in the past.

Late at night when there was nobody on the road, I used to deliberately run red lights, drive the wrong way up one-way streets, blow through stop signs, etc.  Some of my friends used to put me up to it, but in fairness, I was a pretty instigator too, and was always trying to get my friends to do illegal or crazy things.  But I never got busted for any of that stupid stuff.  It was always just routine stuff like speeding that I got bagged for.  I was pretty lucky in that respect.  I got into trouble a lot less than I deserved to, man.

Now, the only thing I do wrong is speed.  I refuse to give that up.  I don't care how many tickets I get, I'll keep doing it.  A man has to have some vices....

[dazzleman]

The best way to avoid tickets is to reduce your driving.  If you utilize the automobile only for short trips, and do not engage in unreasonable pursuits like driving for more than 30 minutes, you are unlikely to feel the need to speed.  Driving from one city to another should always be avoided - after all there is nothing to see in between besides WaffleHut and WalMart.  Fly instead, or simply don't go, since after all how is one American city different from another?

I used to get tickets all the time when I drove places, but haven't in years now that I don't.  That said I got a ticket here just yesterday, for driving my motorbike with a helmetless girl on the back.  The fine should've been 200 baht (about $5), but since I didn't have any license or ID he wanted to keep my bike there and make me schlep all the way over to the police station to pay it, and then schelp all the way back.  I whined about that for so long that he finally agreed to be bribed, but insisted on 500 baht!  I paid, but my girl was scandalized by the amount (she only got 600 a couple of hours later).

That's hilarious, opebo.  She really must have been pissed that the cop's little bribe was almost as much as her 'wages' for performance that day.  She really should have charged you more as a result.

I really don't drive that much, and that's the only reason I don't have a record of speeding convictions as long as your arm.  I love to speed, and don't care much if I get caught, as long as it doesn't happen too frequently.  I never go faster than road conditions allow, but I don't allow myself to be constrained by an arbitrary limit if conditions allow for faster travel.  So in that sense, I'm not too concerned about avoiding tickets.  Now watch -- I'll go out and get 3 of them in the next month, and then I'll be concerned about it...

[dazzleman]

I've never had a speeding ticket or been at fault in an automobile accident since I was 16. I am 26 now.

Good for you, man.  You'll be my second candidate for sainthood, after Wally.  

It's looking more and more as if I've hung around with a bunch of disreputable rebels ever since high school.

[dazzleman]

Too bad you deleted that long, interesting post about your speeding ticket, angus.  Be careful - it is my understanding that an warrant will be issued and you will be subject to arrest at any time if you do not pay the ticket.  In other words your next traffic stop will be even less pleasant.

Or, they could suspend his license, so the next time he gets stopped, he has an additional charge added on, at the very least.

I find it's always better to face up to penalties for stuff like this and get them behind you.  It's a lot cheaper and less painful that way.