Is leftism pro-Islam?

[dazzleman]

I think that for most leftists, anti-Americanism trumps everything else.  For that reason alone, many leftists have a sympathy for Islam, despite the fact that they abhor most of the ideas that Islam represents.  It's just that they hate America even more, and therefore must find something good to say about Islam.

Alfteich also makes great points about political correctness.  The main goal of political correctness is to defend and reward all that is evil, at the expense of the good.  Since fundamentalism Islam preaches mass murder, it is very important to show great tolerance for it.  Since Christianity does not preach mass murder (at this time), and is the dominant religion in America, it has no such claim on tolerance toward it.

Understand?

[dazzleman]

I think that for most leftists, anti-Americanism trumps everything else.  For that reason alone, many leftists have a sympathy for Islam, despite the fact that they abhor most of the ideas that Islam represents.  It's just that they hate America even more, and therefore must find something good to say about Islam.

LOL. Do you really think most people who voted for Kerry really hate America and support anything that's anti-American (and of course, there's no reason for htem being anti-American, it just is that way)

You're a complete idiot if you really think that. The truth is, I do no care if something is pro- or anti-American. I only care about if I agree with it. I do not agree with Islam, so I hate it. I agree with Hugo Chavez, so I like him. I agree with the Sudan People's Liberation Army, who are pro-American, so I support them. Being pro- or anti-American has nothing to do with it. How something stands on America is meaningless to me, I only judge things SOLEY on how close to my ideology they are.

Please show me where I have praised North Korea. Being such an anti-American country, I should love it by your standards.

Of course this was my opinion, then I went to a leadership convention. Now I don't care if anything is pro- or anti-American, just if it's anti-communist.

I don't think all people who voted for Kerry hate America.  But I think that some of them do.  The extreme leftists who hate America are a relatively small part of the Democratic party, but have a disproportionate influence on the party, and the public image that the party has.

You really should read what I say more carefully before making comments.  It's important to demonstrate intelligence yourself before labeling somebody else an idiot.

[dazzleman]

You said MOST leftists.

You also failed to show where I said I loved North Korea. By your logic, I should, because you think I support anything that's anti-American, no matter what. You have said I was anti-American for hating South Vietnam, when in fact my view on it is PRO-American, I don't think that horrid regime was worth a single American dime or single American life defending, regardless of what the alternative is. Therefore I wanted absolutely no American intervention in Vietnam, thus saving AMERICAN lives and AMERICAN resources.

You don't seem to get it.  I'm not looking to address your personal views.  You may or may not be the typical leftist.  Not all Democratic voters or Kerry voters are leftists in any case.

I don't give a rat's azz about your views of North Korea.  You'd have to be one step away from the looney bin to like that government.  

Your overall tone is anti-American.  It's an observation I made a while back, and I continue to believe it, for a number of reasons other than just your opinion of South Vietnam.  Maybe you're just negative in general, and would be negative toward whatever society you live in.

You seem to have taken a personal affront to my observation and I regret that, but it is what I believe.

[dazzleman]

You don't seem to get it.  I'm not looking to address your personal views.  You may or may not be the typical leftist.  Not all Democratic voters or Kerry voters are leftists in any case.

it seems to me you are defining leftists as being anti-American, and therefore that anyone who is not anti-American is not a leftist.

I don't give a rat's azz about your views of North Korea.  You'd have to be one step away from the looney bin to like that government.

well no arguments here, but by your logic leftists should like it solely because of it's anti-Americanism. Not the case.  Also not the case with Sudan.

Your overall tone is anti-American.  It's an observation I made a while back, and I continue to believe it, for a number of reasons other than just your opinion of South Vietnam.  Maybe you're just negative in general, and would be negative toward whatever society you live in.

give evidence. And like I said before, I can just seem to be anti-American now because of how strongly opposed to the current administration I am. Things would be much different if John Kerry was in office.

You seem to have taken a personal affront to my observation and I regret that, but it is what I believe.

Basically because what you believe is utter bullsh**t.

BRTD, I believe that you are not interested in the security or well-being of the US, and that you have no appreciation for the freedoms and privileges that come with being an American.  If I were so inclined to take the time, I could come up with many, many quotes to back myself up on this, but nothing would convince you anyway, so I'm not going to bother.

In general, you seem to be motivated much more by negative emotions than by positive ones.  One day you may regret that.

[dazzleman]

To be fair Dazzle, you DID say most leftists, and while I agree that the far left has too big of an influence on the party, that doesn't necessary correlate to what the majority of Democrats believe.

I think the problem here is that we have several rather extreme members on this board, from both sides of the political spectrum, and they are -- how should I put this --- rather VOCAL about what they believe, while some of the less extreme, more standard Democrats like myself, don't usually pipe up that much.

Most leftists don't hate America, and the ones that you claim DO --- will hate America in an indirect way. They will say things and believe in causes that aren't really beneficial to OUR country in any way -- that's their right to do so, and it's what they see as what is best for the USA -- no matter how wrong they may be.

Doesn't mean they hate America, though.  They certainly don't realize how !@#$damn lucky we have it here, but a lot of Americans seem to have that problem. Sticking an  American flag on your car or attending a pro-choice rally also doesn't do sh**t.

Nation, I don't think most regular Democrats are leftists in the sense that I describe them here.   However, I do think that leftists have a stranglehold over the Democratic Party because they are so vocal, contribute a large portion of the money the party needs, and get a free pass effectively from certain segments of the party.  This gives them much more influence than would be indicated by their numbers.

I have to disagree with you about most leftists not at least disliking America.  I believe that anti-Americanism is a central component of the leftist ideology, and there is a knee-jerk tendency among leftists to take the anti-American position on almost any issue.

There are different degrees of leftism.  There is Michael Moore, who is an America-hater who wishes us ill, on one extreme.  Less extreme is someone like Nancy Pelosi, who doesn't hate America, but who doesn't support some of the measures necessary to keep us secure.  There's some difference between these two types, but unfortunately, they sometimes produce the same results.

I don't base my opinions on any of this on people from this forum, though the leftists on this forum (and there really are only a handful) generally confirm the opinions that I hold about their philosophy.

[dazzleman]

In response to your query, dazzleman, I daresay that I understand, but once again, you've found a sinister motive behind the most benign desire to respect religious freedom. I respect Muslims for their unflinching commitment to what they believe, just as I respect evangelical Christians for the intensity of their faith, but in this country with its tradition of legal secularism,  I would oppose any attempt by either group to codify their beliefs in a way that would restrict the freedoms of others. I think that's simple and guileless enough for you to understand.

You obviously didn't understand my point, or have chosen to ignore it.  I will give you a simple example that you can understand.  After Sept. 11, schools in New York City bent over backwards to make sure that Muslim students were allowed to pray in school during Ramadan.  Would Christians have been afforded this courtesy for a Christian holiday?  I trust you can figure out the answer to that question.

[dazzleman]

I still think Pinochet is scum (dazzleman once said I was anti-American for hating him). 

No, I said you were anti-American because even if he had the exact same policies, you would not have hated him if he had been an enemy, rather than a friend, of the US.

[dazzleman]

No.  There are very few things that must come in the package of "being from the left", and one's opinion of Islam is not one of them.  Debate would be a lot more productive if we stopped telling other people what they believe and instead discussed what they actually believe.

You're right.  Not all leftists are apologists for fundamentalist Islam.  But there is an element on the left that considers fundamentalist Islam at the very least a lesser evil than the US.

I have never said that ALL leftists are pro-Islam, but I have said that there is some tendency on the left to overlook some of the hideous aspects of fundamentalist Islam because of its anti-Americanism.  Some people have taken that to mean that I believe every person to the left of Ronald Reagan thinks that way.  I do not believe that, but apparently have not communicated it very well.

What I can't do is deny a behavior that has been somewhat prevalent on the left since the 1960s - to look sympathetically at that which is hostile to the US.  While I don't say every leftist does this, I cannot honestly deny that this tendency exists.  If this means that talking to me is like talking to a wall, so be it.  Facts are stubborn things, as my hero Josef Stalin once said.