Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[WMS]

Let’s snip the quote trees a bit.

You mean condemning Russian invasion? That’s just everyone’s sane position. Even China doesn’t agree with it even if they won’t directly oppose Russia and will rather hide behind neutrality.

Actually, then 52 countries of the world are insane by your logic. They’re not exactly a pleasant lot for the most part:

A few statistics from comparing UNGAR ES-11/1 (condemning Russia) with the -4 to 100 Freedom Scale by Freedom House.

Median FH Scores, to avoid Mean/Average skewing:

No Votes: 3 out of 100

Abstain Votes: 30 out of 100

Absent Votes*: 20 out of 100 (gee who would they have voted for, you think?)
*Turns out Venezuela can’t vote in the UNGA because they haven’t paid their UN dues in two years…just Venezuela…

Yes Votes: 79 out of 100

bUt MuH bOtH sIdEs…yeah, piss off, Russia stans

One very different thing is supporting this articulation of full isolation of a country and realistically, you cannot deny there isn’t a major geographical divide shaping up. Forget China, there’s also:

- India is working for an alternative exchange way to go around western sanctions
- South Africa publicly saying the war is NATO’s fault
- Brazil joined the countries above in asking for Russia’s claim of US Biological labs to be investigated and wanting Russia partnership for its nuclear subs projects
- Saudi Arabia (!!!!) studying to make payments to Russia in Chinese coin. Even Israel, seen as western ally, behaved more like Iran in this issue lol
- Mexico, Argentina and others positioning against the international institutions being kidnapped to propel an isolation of Russia. And those all are places which condemned the invasion when it started, as you said.

It’s not geographic, it’s based mostly on power tier levels in the world mixed with the autocratic-democratic ideological divide. Second-tier powers want to weaken the first-tier power so they can do whatever they want to their neighbors. This appears to override considerations of democracy and autocracy because power corrupts and all that.*

China is the current second-tier primary rival to the U.S. That’s right compucomp, second-tier; China isn’t at the U.S. level at this time. Plus they’re all in favor of a world of autocracies.
India is another second-tier power, which has a long tradition of hardline anti-Americanism mostly rooted in the independence leaders choosing so on their own - while I disagree with Nixon’s 1971 policies it is a lie to say that is the cause of those attitudes. The rise of Hindutuva nationalism has increased the aggressiveness of India, while also increasing their authoritarianism.
South Africa is another second-tier power, and while the ruling ANC still has the hardline left tendencies from years before I have my doubts on how exactly that matches the popular will - that is a Hashemite question since he is an expert on South Africa.
Brazil, or Bolsonaro? Supporting Russia’s biolabs claim is characteristic of the extreme right and the extreme left. But Brazil is another second-tier power with all that entails, plus it is fair to say that Jair Bolsonaro, ah, has authoritarian tendencies?
Saudi Arabia is clearly moving in support of autocracy worldwide because gee, that’s what it is. The personal dislike between MBS and Biden contributes. But 1)the Saudis can’t actually follow through on that threat without great difficulty and 2)using Saudi Arabia as a point in favor of something is err unusual also 3)the breaking of the U.S.-Saudi relationship is something most people think is good.
Israel is being put in the spotlight on this one although if you think they’re going to pick Russia over the U.S. well that’s a lot of aid to give up for Russia. And I thought you supported the Palestinians?! Gloating about any Israeli opposition to Western sanctions seems a bit ideologically inconsistent.
Mexico, Argentina, etc hmm let’s see there sure is a lot of Russian money flowing around corrupting politicians all over the world and that is already evident in Mexico as indicated earlier in this very thread:

Mexico won't sanction Russia in order to maintain good relations

exico will not join the U.S. and several European countries that are imposing economic sanctions on the Russian government in response to the ongoing invasion of Ukraine.

Mexican President Andrés Manuel López Obrador said Tuesday that his country will not place sanctions on Russia due to his desire to maintain "good relations with all governments in the world," according to Reuters.

The Mexican president also criticized what he considered to be censorship of Russian state-owned media, as Facebook, Twitter, Google, Reddit and YouTube have all taken steps in recent days to combat misinformation or propaganda regarding the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, including halting advertising revenue from being distributed to several Russian state-owned outlets.

"We're not going to take any kind of economic reprisal because we want to have good relations with all the governments in the world, and we want to be able to talk with the parties in conflict," López Obrador said when asked about his stance on the sanctions from other countries.

"We do not consider that it corresponds to us, and we think that the best thing is to promote dialogue to achieve peace," he was quoted by CNN.

The announcement from López Obrador came just a day after he and the Mexican tourism minister said that Mexico would not follow the EU in blocking Russian airlines from landing at airports in the country, according to Mexico News Daily. Over the weekend, Tourism Minister Miguel Torruco also posted a widely criticized series of tweets showcasing various statistics about Russian tourism in Mexico and the money that has come into the country related to tourism from Russia.

A bit more to that story.

Also not an opinion unanimous across Mexico.

I wonder how much the corrupt leftist Kirchnerists in Argentina have? And also what popular opinion thinks about it? Country experts on the Forum would know that one. Let’s not forget how much Obrador and Trump got along either.

The “kidnapping of international institutions”? Say what? Which ones? Seems like they’re functioning as expected, unless you consider any actions against Russia to be evidence of ‘kidnapping’. The Western-aligned institutions are shockingly not in favor of anti-Western countries, especially ones violating every international principle and rule there is. I find it heartwarming how only the Western-aligned institutions have imploded Russia’s economy, even with the at times inconsistent enforcement of sanctions.

The only non-Anglo and non-European countries that are aligning are Japan and South Korea. You can’t talk about “international community united” without almost all of Asia, all of Africa and Latin America. It’s a divide being stimulated that simply isn’t good for anyone, if you don’t understand the possible consequences.

You forgot Taiwan. But umm let’s see that’s quite a claim of non-alignment. I have made no claims about the “international community united” although the weight of opinion is clearly on one side. As the UNGA vote indicates there was no hesitation in abstaining amongst the Russian and Chinese clients out there.

The international divide is and has been for decades been stimulated by the likes of Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, and so on and so forth. Or do you think all that Russian and Chinese and Saudi and etc. investment in the Developing World is being done on humanitarian impulses? Autocracy, Inc., on the move.

And since you like % so much…



This is Brazilians opinion on the matter btw. Even if most sympathize with Ukraine being invaded and disagree with the war, they still defend neutrality on the matter lol

And it’s a bipartisanship position as evidenced by the poll above. 91% of Bolsonaro voters agree with his neutrality, but also 70% of Lula voters lol. And this isn’t surprising position at all.

When agreeing with Bolsonaro voters is considered virtuous.

From the Brazilian thread the patterns match what I’ve observed in general: the more extreme one is the more they support Russia, either outright or indirectly.

Anyway, have fun screaming here in your bubble, because I’m not going to be like compcomp and argue with people whose sympathy is limited to specific locations. There was no coordinated pressure to isolate US for invading Iraq, there shouldn’t be one for Russia either. Everyone knows the reasons behind on WHY this is happening just in this case, people aren’t stupid.

My bubble? Jajaja jajaja jajaja jajaja! Oh sorry, my sympathy is for, you know, fellow humans and extends to the critters as well, regardless of their “specific location”. And you are still parroting the same intellectually dishonest whataboutism and accusations of bigotry you did before. Since your grasp of history is shaky at best, here are a few corrections: 1) there was an attempt to isolate the U.S. over Iraq, led by Jacques Chirac, Gerhard Schroeder and Vladimir Putin. It just kinda failed; 2) a democracy invading to topple a totalitarian regime that was violating U.N. sanctions, even with all the many flaws inherent in it, is not comparable to a totalitarian regime invading a democracy to annex parts of it and subjugate the rest; 3) there’s kind of a difference between how they conducted themselves as well.

Only those blind to what’s going on actually believe your tripe about the current crisis. That, or they enthusiastically support autocracy and brutality. Which is it for you, Red Fascist?

*Several of the democracies that voted to Abstain are of the “democracy is fine as long as the ruling party always wins”. If the ruling party’s position is threatened the authoritarianism comes out.

[WMS]

It’s not geographic, it’s based mostly on power tier levels in the world mixed with the autocratic-democratic ideological divide. Second-tier powers want to weaken the first-tier power so they can do whatever they want to their neighbors. This appears to override considerations of democracy and autocracy because power corrupts and all that.*

Lol that’s the typical “bringing freedom and democracy to the savages” world police exceptionalism that it’s pointless to argue with. Not that different from Putin fabricating moral argument bs that validates HIS interventions with the “denazification” thing.

Oh bulls#!t. If you cannot see the mix of power politics and affinity to autocracy behind not supporting Ukraine then you’re being deliberately obtuse. Or if you cannot see the difference between Ukraine’s government and Russia’s government. Or if you cannot see the differences between most governments supporting Ukraine and most governments supporting Russia. Unless you’re not speaking in good faith, of course.

As if the West was democratic pinnacle to act like that, the main difference there is that corruption is sold as “entrepreneurship” and elections with two parties only are treated as example to others to follow. You’re not changing your mind and neither am I on this.

As opposed to what? The West is definitely better than those opposing it over Ukraine on human rights, political rights, civil liberties, corruption, human development, and other such grounds.

Regarding the Brazilian poll, that’s not the “Bolsonaro” or “Lula” view. Neutrality is a consensus. The “Nem-Nem” voters are people who will vote for other options and they’re 73% so… not an ideological thing at all. You can bet the Lula voter would be even higher than 70% if it wasn’t Bolsonaro pushing for neutrality.

Most Brazilians don’t want to get involved. Although that is different from supporting Russian fake claims on bio labs or inviting Russia to develop subs. Do most Brazilians support those? Wait, I read the entire poll since my last reply and:

Quaest March 2022, questions related to Russia vs Ukraine war

View on Russia
All: unfavorable 68%, none 26%, favorable 7%
Bolsonaro voters: unfavorable 69%, none 24%, favorable 7%
Lula voters: unfavorable 65%, none 27%, favorable 8%
other voters: unfavorable 46%, none 51%, favorable 4%

Which side should Brazil support?
All: neutral 71%, Ukraine 20%, Russia 1%
Bolsonaro voters: neutral 78%, Ukraine 16%, Russia 1%
Lula voters: neutral 68%, Ukraine 21%, Russia 1%
other voters: neutral 70%, Ukraine 25%, Russia 1%

Hmm, only 7% favorable towards Russia, and 68% unfavorable. That rather indicates that while Brazilians don’t want to get involved, they’ve made it clear who they think is in the wrong. That is not consistent with supporting Russia on bio labs claims in Ukraine or with nuclear submarine development with Russia. As for the bit about the Lula voters, there are people who blindly follow what their leaders tell them to everywhere.

Again, that doesn’t mean support for Russia at all (I think people sympathize with Ukraine), but show that people disagree with taking a position and not just buying the simplistic good vs evil narrative. NYT already reported on this geographic divide:

In some parts of the world, the war in Ukraine seems justified

Yeah, very much sympathetic to Ukraine. Even Lula voters only have Russia at 8% support.

Oh my. I don’t think that article supports what you think it does.

Most of the world has loudly and unequivocally condemned Mr. Putin for sparking a war with Ukraine. But in countries where governments have remained neutral, tacitly supported Russia or encouraged the dissemination of false or sanitized accounts of the war, citizens are voicing a much more complicated and forgiving narrative of Mr. Putin’s invasion.

Most definition.

Note that two out of the three categories of countries not part of “most of the world” are negative: either “tacitly supported Russia” or “encouraged the dissemination of false or sanitized accounts of the war”. Not exactly disagreeing with taking a position or rejecting good and evil sides; quite the opposite.

I can’t quote too much of the article but these bits are telling:

Arthur Maia Caetano {from} Rio de Janeiro…has been using his time to read Russian news websites and bulletins from…Telegram…Mr. Caetano {cited} unfounded claims circulating online…

In China, state media has done much to bolster false stories about what is unfolding in Ukraine. Outlets have republished official Russian propaganda without verification, including false reports…

In Vietnam, state authorities have also attempted to control the narrative about the war…issued directives on reporting on the war that included reducing the extent and frequency of coverage, and banning the word “invasion.”

The African National Congress…is South Africa’s governing party. The latest edition of its weekly newsletter includes an article with the headline, “Situation in Ukraine is about denazification of the country by Russia.” The article perpetuates the false claim, promoted by the Russian government, that in 2014 Ukraine’s government “was replaced by ultra-nationals and neo Nazis who were backed by the U.S. and the E.U.”

Fine company, this.

And yes, your bubble, everyone should always realize they’re in one and their views are related to many different backgrounds and experiences.

Not how you used the term but ooooookay then. I think it’s fair to say I’m in a bigger bubble than you. I at least rely on a free and fair exchange of information when making my points and do my best to cite a variety of sources that aren’t spouting the rhetoric of autocratic regimes.

But cool that you mention that attempts to isolate US for Iraq war failed while this one went unquestioned for a reason. Thanks for backing my point?

You missed the point. Your failure to differentiate between the two cases means you also fail to see why the outcomes of isolation attempts were different.

[WMS]

And the correlation of “bringing freedom” wasn’t about this Ukraine situation at all, but how your part of the world talks about third world as undemocratic savages to justify wars, which is what WMS used to differentiate wars in Iraq as more justifiable than this one.

That is not my position you lying sack of crap. I neither said nor implied that the “third world” (I thought we were using Developing World?) is a bunch of ‘undemocratic savages.’ Saddam Hussein’s Iraqi government certainly did fit that bill, something you would realize if you ever cracked open some human rights reports. The difference between that government and the U.S. one does in part explain the differing reactions and actions to Iraq as opposed to Ukraine. Or are you going to argue that Saddam’s Iraqi government is morally equivalent to Zelenesky’s Ukrainian one? Because that is what you are implying.

“Oh but you say that, you are validating other places interventions”. No, because 1) I am personally against what Russia is doing in Ukraine, although I defend neutrality. 2) These places already feel entitled to war and interventions regardless of whatever I think lol. Look at WMS post and you get the idea war is more justifiable when done against undemocratic savages. And who gets to decide that? Because I don’t believe most of the West is example of democracy or anticorruption.

Yet fucking again you lie about my position. There is nothing about “undemocratic savages”. The difference between the government of Saddam’s Iraq and the government of the U.S. did in part shape the international reaction to the Iraq War. I don’t call it Bush’s Iraq because as a democracy the government was not at the whim of an autocrat like Saddam.* Just as the difference between the government of Ukraine and the government of Putin’s Russia are in part shaping the international reaction to the Ukraine War.** Plenty of governments opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq, but they*** weren’t about to sanction the U.S. to destroy its economy or the like for the sake of multi-genocidaire Saddam Hussein.

I find the prevalence of whataboutism and “both sides” claims among some parts of the Developing World over the Ukraine War to be a mark against them, not a point in their favor. However it seems to mostly be an elite- and government-led effort designed to convince their populations a la the Russian effort on the far left and far right in the U.S. Surely they are simply misled by their own government’s propaganda because cheering for the death and suffering of others is something actual “undemocratic savages” of all countries would partake in.

*Yes, the Bush Administration had problems both internal and external. No, it is in no way the moral equivalent of Saddam’s regime. Grow up.
**Putin is an autocrat, Zelenesky is a democrat. Notice the trend?
***Excepting Iran (officially, anyway) who gasp is on the side supporting Russia today! And even they didn’t do it for Saddam’s sake.

[WMS]

Manipulation of Global Opinion; or, Why compucomp and Red Fascist are Totally Wrong About Developing World Support for Russia

https://twitter.com/carljackmiller/status/1504896238826700800?s=21

Read the entire thread.

[WMS]

Don’t think these have been mentioned yet…

https://twitter.com/terrelljstarr/status/1505662406499971074?s=21
As mentioned in that thread what exactly do people think the Wagner Group is?

https://twitter.com/rvawonk/status/1505753091655835649?s=21
Ah, there’s that false flag everyone knew Russia was preparing…

https://twitter.com/ukraine_world/status/1505844236259844096?s=21
…to justify what they’re preparing to do.

https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1505734086106632192?s=21
Note the parallels.

https://twitter.com/ericshe11350341/status/1505674066283409412?s=21
Here’s another horrible Ukrainian Neo-Nazi according to the propaganda certain posters claim is both true and a reflection of world opinion.

https://twitter.com/billkristol/status/1505875697079836676?s=21
About said propaganda…

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1505504040347742214?s=21
About those Ukrainians kidnapped to Russia…

https://twitter.com/natsechobbyist/status/1505534739754754053?s=21
10 million refugees. UNHCR High Commissioner numbers, not from Ukrainian government.

https://twitter.com/maxfras/status/1505843869707116547?s=21
Russia threatens Poland now, in case you missed it.

https://twitter.com/benjancewicz/status/1505381376320847873?s=21
Just look at that traitor to Russia!

https://twitter.com/joncoopertweets/status/1505642632168550400?s=21
The Glorious Actions of the Anti-Western Liberation Forces!

https://twitter.com/zhizhuweb/status/1504220833719455745?s=21
If anyone is still defending Russia on “both sides” or “what about” or “but muh Soviet support for this or that liberation group” grounds after reading this, go fuck off and die.

[WMS]

Manipulation of Global Opinion; or, Why compucomp and Red Fascist are Totally Wrong About Developing World Support for Russia

https://twitter.com/carljackmiller/status/1504896238826700800?s=21

Read the entire thread.

Just a refresher.

[WMS]

Very well, I will post far fewer tweets per post (ironically, on my phone) to help those reading on their phones.

Russian Atrocities:
https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1506273882088562700?s=21
Yes, I could’ve posted a tweet with pictures confirming this, but I chose not to. Be grateful.

https://twitter.com/andersostlund/status/1506310181726130178?s=21
Typical for how “undemocratic savages” wage war.

Russian War Aims:
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1506308164966301703?s=21
The Russians themselves have made it clear they won’t stop in Ukraine.

To Keep in Mind:
https://twitter.com/djrothkopf/status/1506243054549839875?s=21
Read the whole thread.

Ok, enough tweets. Sorry, hilarious tractor ones will have to wait.

[WMS]

Well, I see it is again time to pop the balloon of “tHe DeVeLoPiNg WoRlD iS uNiTeD aGaInSt ThE WeSt”.

First, support is being driven by a Russian misinformation campaign:
https://twitter.com/carljackmiller/status/1504896238826700800?s=21

Read the entire thread.

Amplified by governmental interference in the BRICS countries + Vietnam.

While the ruling government in Mexico - influenced by Russian money as their Tourism Minister mentioned - is rather milquetoast on Russia, the opposition is more critical. And Mexico did vote to condemn Russia.

Speaking of that, here’s the vote in question. Taking the most generous-to-Russia interpretation possible of that vote, where all non-Yes votes are counted together*, it was 141-52 against Russia. You won’t get those results with only “the West”**. Therefore, there had to be significant numbers of Developing World countries that voted for the resolution, indicating a lack of unanimity***.

A brief digression. While certain people are typing one-handed at the thought of the BRICS sweeping away all Western influence and ushering in a new era of unmitigated oligarchic autocracy freedom from Western influence, let’s look at some neighbors of the BRICS and see how they voted, shall we?
-Bhutan, Nepal, and the Maldives, all in a tug-of-war between India and China, voted Yes.
-Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, the Philippines, Indonesia, Timor-Leste, and all of Oceania’s island countries voted Yes.
-All of the Middle East except for Syria, Iraq, and Iran voted Yes, including Lebanon.
-Botswana, Lesotho, Zambia, and Malawi among South Africa’s neighbors voted Yes.
-All of the island countries around Madagascar voted Yes.
-Both Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo voted Yes, interesting considering they have, err, tensions.
-Fascinating how countries that have suffered anti-democratic coups were Abstain or Absent, same as those with a Russian military presence.
-Nigeria voted Yes. I wonder if South Africa voting Abstain had any role in that? Not like they’re the two biggest sub-Saharan African powers who each might wish to be first among equals or anything…
-And of course most of Latin America and the Caribbean voted Yes.

Hmm, it’s almost like the BRICS’ neighbors don’t want them to usher in a new multipolar age where they’d be at their bigger neighbors’ mercy. Fancy that.

Let’s move on to more concrete measures. While a smaller number of countries have sent military aid to Ukraine, if you include other forms of aid the number rises****, including non-Western countries, so again, a lack of unanimity.

Note I haven’t claimed the Developing World is united against Russia*****. I am claiming that they’re not united in favor of Russia******.  But combating the repeated misinformation being repeatedly spouted on this forum and in this thread about world opinion is, I think, a useful service.

*Not a safe assumption to make, but for our purposes usable.
**Well, duh. The West doesn’t comprise 141 countries.
***If you object that those votes in the UNGA mean nothing, then the same logic can be applied to all those Abstain and Absent votes and you still don’t have unanimity.
****Even counting token amounts of aid, there are some interesting Developing World countries that pop up.
*****Most of the parts with capital, yes. Shhhh, don’t upset certain nationalists with that fact.
******Which is what the type of neutrality being claimed by certain posters amounts to de facto.

[WMS]

Seems like Lukashenko has more sense then Putin.

https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1506466784815288327

 Whoever expected that Lukashenko would play the role, albeit even tentatively and borderline, as an FF in this conflict?

He isn't stupid.

He knows that if he sent his troops into Ukraine, there would be another coup and he probably won't be able to survive this one.

 Oh I get it. He is still fundamentally a dictatorial POS and abuser of human rights. And i totally agree hes acting in self interest.

But at the same time as that Twitter feed notes he is risking Putin trying to take him out with a coup as well. I understand that he is that he is just balancing the odds as to which to which decision will more likely oust him from power, and if it turns 51% in favor of being ousted by not invading then he'll send the troops in. It's just odd that even through naked self interest and real politic he is making decisions that benefit the Ukraine and liberal democracy..

Here is a 'balancing act' for Alexander Lukashenko -he orders the Belarusian military to invade western Ukraine in accordance with Putin's wishes, and then immediately gets on a plane with his one-way ticket to Moscow to join his Ukrainian counterpart Viktor Yanukovych in exile.  If nothing else, he has a better chance at survival and self-preservation while avoiding accountability than with any other plan.  

You Russia could come out with less territory than when it started?

Among other things, we should certainly demand that Russia return its ill-gotten territorial gains and return to its pre-2008 borders and a demilitarized Kaliningrad as a precondition of ending sanctions if they are to have any hope of rescuing their economy.  

But above all else, we should demand an end to Vladimir Putin's regime, and that he must step down permanently from power and face accountability before the International Criminal Court (he is a war criminal, after all).

All "frozen conflicts" are resolved in favor of the internationally recognized territorial owner (Abkhazia, S. Ossetia, Transnistria, Donbass).

I'd also want Russia to relinquish Kaliningrad Oblast. Its continued existence as a heavily militarized westen Russian exclave would be a threat to peace in the Baltic. Russia has already stationed "defensive" missiles there (in response to an eventually cancelled US plan to build a missile defense complex in Poland) and repeatedly hints at stationing nuclear weapons there. I assume a 4th Baltic state would be welcome to join the EU and NATO.

If possible, Japan should also have the southern Kuril islands returned.

Another possible outcome would be turning Kaliningrad Oblast into an area jointly run by Poland and Lithuania for security purposes and the like; they can call it the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth…

[WMS]

Posted separately to keep length reasonable.

I see tankies were recently discussed. Found this useful guide on How to Tankie properly:
https://twitter.com/darthputinkgb/status/1506714867981602817?s=21

Russian Atrocities, Attempted Starvation Version:
https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1506719556986982413?s=21
https://twitter.com/akurkov/status/1506153985505476611?s=21

Fine, Something Lighter:
https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1505297662274420740?s=21

[WMS]

Is this more idiotic or more infuriating? It’s your chose.

https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/1507019467519275028?s=21

[WMS]

Is this more idiotic or more infuriating? It’s your chose.

https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/1507019467519275028?s=21

This dumb**s does realize that most Ukrainians are very Orthodox Christian, right?

They either don’t know or consider them not real Christians. Flip a coin, there’s evidence for both viewpoints for her (and she’s not the only one, either).

[WMS]

Here are some bits from Reporters Without Borders:

Vicious torture by Russians

How Russians treat the press

Ukraine has its problems but has improved since the Russian puppets were kicked out, whereas Russia is an utter pit, and hey China is the fourth-worst country in the world for press freedom!

Clearly this shows that there is no difference whatsoever between state-controlled and free media!

[WMS]

Was reading the Donbas Wikipedia entry earlier and was wondering if anyone could tell me how accurate it is. Certainly makes Donbas sound like a grim place and would be extremely costly to rebuild/reform for whomever is in charge of it in the near future:

By 1993, industrial production had collapsed, and average wages had fallen by 80% since 1990. Donbas fell into crisis, with many accusing the new central government in Kyiv of mismanagement and neglect. Donbas coal miners went on strike in 1993, causing a conflict that was described by historian Lewis Siegelbaum as "a struggle between the Donbas region and the rest of the country". One strike leader said that Donbas people had voted for independence because they wanted "power to be given to the localities, enterprises, cities", not because they wanted heavily centralised power moved from "Moscow to Kyiv".[37]

This strike was followed by a 1994 consultative referendum on various constitutional questions in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, held concurrently with the first parliamentary elections in independent Ukraine.[38] These questions included whether Russian should be declared an official language of Ukraine, whether Russian should be the language of administration in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, whether Ukraine should federalise, and whether Ukraine should have closer ties with the Commonwealth of Independent States.[39]

Close to 90% of voters voted in favour of these propositions.[40] None of them were adopted: Ukraine remained a unitary state, Ukrainian was retained as the sole official language, and the Donbas gained no autonomy.[36] Nevertheless, the Donbas strikers gained many economic concessions from Kyiv, allowing for an alleviation of the economic crisis in the region.[37]

Power in the Donbas became concentrated in a regional political elite, known as oligarchs, during the early 2000s. Privatisation of state industries led to rampant corruption. Regional historian Hiroaki Kuromiya described this elite as the "Donbas clan", a group of people that controlled economic and political power in the region.[37] Prominent members of the "clan" included Viktor Yanukovych and Rinat Akhmetov. The formation of the oligarchy, combined with corruption, led to perceptions of the Donbas as "the least democratic and the most sinister region in Ukraine".[37]

In other parts of Ukraine during the 2000s, the Donbas was often perceived as having a "thug culture", as being a "Soviet cesspool", and as "backward". Writing in the Narodne slovo newspaper in 2005, commentator Viktor Tkachenko said that the Donbas was home to "fifth columns", and that speaking Ukrainian in the region was "not safe for one's health and life".[45] It was also portrayed as being home to pro-Russian separatism. The Donbas is home to a significantly higher number of cities and villages that were named after Communist figures compared to the rest of Ukraine.[46] Despite this portrayal, surveys taken across that decade and during the 1990s showed strong support for remaining within Ukraine and insignificant support for separatism.[47] 

And look what Putin has done to the place!

That’s 4 points out of 100, by the way. Complete with some ethnic cleansing!

Plus what Storr posted above. The Glorious Rebirth of the Russian Empire sure is dystopian.

[WMS]

As usual, I look for things that haven’t been mentioned yet to post.

First, the International Red Cross has likely once again (see Haiti) engaged in questionable practices, this time aiding and abetting Russia’s forced deportations of Ukrainians into Russia:
https://twitter.com/mrsorokaa/status/1507804812586500112?s=21&t=PP5AEBLN1Bq-...

Second, Russia and China are proclaiming the Russia-China-India axis opposing the West, but India is not on board with that:
https://twitter.com/tanvi_madan/status/1507722499747987459?s=21&t=K68rAswnac...

Third, China is currently establishing indoctrination of Russian propaganda on Ukraine in their education system:
https://twitter.com/polijunkie_aus/status/1507443852407623680?s=21&t=ZmZT7W9...

Finally, more Russian war crimes in Mariupol:
https://twitter.com/lapatina_/status/1507975405571121160?s=21&t=YgtJ53d_3Dlp...

There’s much, much, more out there about Russian war crimes…

[WMS]

As usual, I look for things that haven’t been mentioned yet to post.

...

Second, Russia and China are proclaiming the Russia-China-India axis opposing the West, but India is not on board with that:
https://twitter.com/tanvi_madan/status/1507722499747987459?s=21&t=K68rAswnaceFGk2lPs8MpA

Third, China is currently establishing indoctrination of Russian propaganda on Ukraine in their education system:
https://twitter.com/polijunkie_aus/status/1507443852407623680?s=21&t=ZmZT7W9I0fwFbyPhghGBoA

...

Ukraine needed to be  "taught a lesson"?

I guess that lesson is the Russian military is significantly weaker than propagandized and has fundamental flaws.
 
https://twitter.com/dikaioslin/status/1507893928959250433?s=20&t=rmovwq1rCqz...

Well China has always been one for dominating and subjugating its neighbors since time immemorial so supporting Russia, while monstrous, is consistent with its history, if not with its supposed opposition to intervening in the internal affairs of other countries.

And it’s not like Chinese students are going to be taught anything but propaganda, so they will doubtless continue to believe that Russia stronk and all that.

[WMS]

The bitterest of confirmations. Is anyone surprised at how Russia has acted in Ukraine? This is how they’ve been acting for the past twenty to thirty fucking years!!! Syria, Chechnya, Georgia, Moldova, the CAR, South Sudan, and even more places. A thing I hadn’t gotten around to posting yet involves a question in Freedom House’s calculations: “Is the government or occupying power deliberately changing the ethnic composition of a country or territory so as to destroy a culture or tip the political balance in favor of another group?” It’s an additional question under Political Rights, Functioning of Government. It’s basically the Ethnic Cleansing and/or Genocide Question. Russia is guilty multiple times - South Ossetia, Crimea, the Eastern Donbas, and a bit further back in Abkhazia and Transnistria directly, and participated a little less directly in Syria, South Sudan, the Central African Republic, and further back in Bosnia. Most of the other cases involve their buddies in China (both Tibet and in Xinjiang), Myanmar (the military government), Sri Lanka, the Sudan…all such sterling examples of human rights.

You know something else they have in common? They keep getting away with it, because it was deemed too costly to ever do anything about it. Some of us have been sounding the alarm since at least 2008*, only to be mocked and scorned by vile people from the left and right alike. But inaction is an action all its own. Many of you aren’t old enough to remember the Rwandan Genocide, where action could’ve saved some of the victims. Or Bosnia, where the killing only stopped when action was finally taken. Or ‘peace at any price’ applied to North Korea in 1994 - that sure worked out well**.

But it’s easy to turn your heads away when it doesn’t affect you personally, huh?

Well, wake up chucklefucks, because the people behind all of these atrocities are out to destroy democracy worldwide. Or have you not goddamned noticed the Russian and Chinese*** money and influence spread worldwide aimed at displacing both Western influence and Western values in order to replace them with something far grimmer****. That includes the support of anti-democratic forces in democratic countries, or have the examples of, say, Fidesz and the GOP not made that clear*****?

You think this world conflict can be avoided by appeasement? That’s what’s led to where we are now! The autocracies of the world will not stop until either democracy dies or autocracy is shattered. The options are surrendering or resisting. But holy shit do some people not get that. Or else they do get it, and welcome surrender, whether out of hate for the Western system that gives them the freedom to act like prats, or out of the belief that peace is worth any price, even global autocratic subjugation.

You can see what a world of autocracies would be like. Just start reading some human rights reports. Then apply that to everyone. Is this what you want? Because if not, then the democracies of the world are going to have to take a stand against their enemies both within and without.

I’m sure plenty of people are already dismissing me as an alarmist or a warmonger or a chickenhawk or whatever bullshit terms come to mind. But I’ve been right about this. Which is the bitterest confirmation of all, because cowardice and confusion and sociopathy and fear have led us all into an abyss that I worry will only be escaped from when it’s filled with the corpses of millions of innocents.

*I saw that thread on Russia invading Georgia from 2008 and yup, I was right. Unfortunately.
 **Yes, I would’ve supported intervention instead. How many millions of North Koreans have died of starvation and oppression since 1994? I bet it’s a LOT more than would have if the North Korean regime had been toppled at its weakest point. But blah blah money blah blah invincible North Korean military blah blah fuck the North Korean people amirite?
***And others. Usually under the rubric of opposing the West. This includes both the Saudis and Iranians. Plus their willing supporters.
****Unless you like the jackboots as long as you get to wear them? Looking at tankies and Trumpists alike, here.
*****Yes, the GOP is a clearly authoritarian party now, riddled with Russian influence. I guess after subverting the Greens the Russians decided to go big.

[WMS]

Just…
https://twitter.com/asamiterajima/status/1510658810003742725?s=21&t=B7r8I0JT...

Oh I forgot the Russian involvement in Libya.
https://twitter.com/olganyc1211/status/1510746133747879936?s=21&t=B7r8I0JTZY...

One of the prime supporters of autocracy:
https://twitter.com/duty2warn/status/1510796594060398595?s=21&t=B7r8I0JTZYAS...

Blah blah unverified Ukrainian propaganda blah blah wishcasting blah blah fuck off.
https://twitter.com/iaponomarenko/status/1510537614805319681?s=21&t=B7r8I0JT...

[WMS]

I wonder if all the hideous people online in India and China and South Africa and Serbia and Kenya and Brazil and yes in the United States and other countries too who have been engaging in whataboutism and “both sides” and ‘but muh revolutionary support from the Soviet Union’ have enough self-awareness to feel deeply ashamed by now?

[WMS]

I wonder if all the hideous people online in India and China and South Africa and Serbia and Kenya and Brazil and yes in the United States and other countries too who have been engaging in whataboutism and “both sides” and ‘but muh revolutionary support from the Soviet Union’ have enough self-awareness to feel deeply ashamed by now?

I wouldn’t count on it. They are probably doubling down instead. These are dark dark times. Elections in Hungary and Serbia were disasterous. We should all fear the french election.

There are a lot of places sparks could ignite from this confrontation. I’m fully expecting something to erupt in Bosnia this year or maybe the next. Depends on what happens in Ukraine.

[WMS]

Based Biden.

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1510996562394103808

I'm all for. once Bush faces them over Iraq.

I hate Bush as much as anyone but piss off with the false equivalence 🤬

> Russia has done more in Ukraine in 6 weeks than Bush did in Iraq in 6 years and that was with Bush actually being able to take Iraq over.

> There was actually a good reason to invade Iraq but instead Bush lied about the causus belli. I originally favored it and still do in principle, but the corruption and incompetence quickly illustrated that it was a failed operation. Bush and members of his administration should be held responsible for the negligence and fraud that they committed and the unnecessary mercurial violence they encouraged in regards to Iraq.

> The only reason Russia invaded Ukraine was because they wanted  back the territory they lost during the dissolution of the USSR.

> Let's talk about the here and now instead of someone else kind of doing the same thing and getting away with it.
 

That argument would have had more credibility outside the west if it was actually talked about rather than swept under the rug with "whataboutery" being one of the things keeping it in the public conciousness.

In this thread, the issue has been raised and the differences pointed out repeatedly by multiple people. The ones bringing it up both in this thread and in other places are doing it to try and score cheap political points against the West in general and the U.S. in particular while dodging answering any of the questions posed by their tepid to nonexistent support of Ukraine. They’re not interested in an honest examination of the issue, but in using “what about Iraq/Afghanistan” as a deflection from their morally bankrupt stance.

[WMS]

Based Biden.

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1510996562394103808

I'm all for. once Bush faces them over Iraq.

I hate Bush as much as anyone but piss off with the false equivalence 🤬

> Russia has done more in Ukraine in 6 weeks than Bush did in Iraq in 6 years and that was with Bush actually being able to take Iraq over.

> There was actually a good reason to invade Iraq but instead Bush lied about the causus belli. I originally favored it and still do in principle, but the corruption and incompetence quickly illustrated that it was a failed operation. Bush and members of his administration should be held responsible for the negligence and fraud that they committed and the unnecessary mercurial violence they encouraged in regards to Iraq.

> The only reason Russia invaded Ukraine was because they wanted  back the territory they lost during the dissolution of the USSR.

> Let's talk about the here and now instead of someone else kind of doing the same thing and getting away with it.
 

That argument would have had more credibility outside the west if it was actually talked about rather than swept under the rug with "whataboutery" being one of the things keeping it in the public conciousness.

In this thread, the issue has been raised and the differences pointed out repeatedly by multiple people. The ones bringing it up both in this thread and in other places are doing it to try and score cheap political points against the West in general and the U.S. in particular while dodging answering any of the questions posed by their tepid to nonexistent support of Ukraine. They’re not interested in an honest examination of the issue, but in using “what about Iraq/Afghanistan” as a deflection from their morally bankrupt stance.

You my friend are incredibly based.

First time I’ve ever been called that

[WMS]

Based Biden.

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1510996562394103808

I'm all for. once Bush faces them over Iraq.

I hate Bush as much as anyone but piss off with the false equivalence 🤬

> Russia has done more in Ukraine in 6 weeks than Bush did in Iraq in 6 years and that was with Bush actually being able to take Iraq over.

> There was actually a good reason to invade Iraq but instead Bush lied about the causus belli. I originally favored it and still do in principle, but the corruption and incompetence quickly illustrated that it was a failed operation. Bush and members of his administration should be held responsible for the negligence and fraud that they committed and the unnecessary mercurial violence they encouraged in regards to Iraq.

> The only reason Russia invaded Ukraine was because they wanted  back the territory they lost during the dissolution of the USSR.

> Let's talk about the here and now instead of someone else kind of doing the same thing and getting away with it.
 

That argument would have had more credibility outside the west if it was actually talked about rather than swept under the rug with "whataboutery" being one of the things keeping it in the public conciousness.

In this thread, the issue has been raised and the differences pointed out repeatedly by multiple people. The ones bringing it up both in this thread and in other places are doing it to try and score cheap political points against the West in general and the U.S. in particular while dodging answering any of the questions posed by their tepid to nonexistent support of Ukraine. They’re not interested in an honest examination of the issue, but in using “what about Iraq/Afghanistan” as a deflection from their morally bankrupt stance.

A discussion on what was done in Iraq and Afghanistan is long overdue.

However, could we perhaps put a pin in it for now?

Sure. If y’all will stop bringing it up.

[WMS]

I wonder if all the hideous people online in India and China and South Africa and Serbia and Kenya and Brazil and yes in the United States and other countries too who have been engaging in whataboutism and “both sides” and ‘but muh revolutionary support from the Soviet Union’ have enough self-awareness to feel deeply ashamed by now?

I wouldn’t count on it. They are probably doubling down instead. These are dark dark times. Elections in Hungary and Serbia were disasterous. We should all fear the french election.

There are a lot of places sparks could ignite from this confrontation. I’m fully expecting something to erupt in Bosnia this year or maybe the next. Depends on what happens in Ukraine.

F**k you better be f**king wrong.

I hope I am wrong. I don’t expect to be, because the Bosnian Serbs seem determined to light the kindling.

[WMS]

That argument would have had more credibility outside the west if it was actually talked about rather than swept under the rug with "whataboutery" being one of the things keeping it in the public conciousness.

In this thread, the issue has been raised and the differences pointed out repeatedly by multiple people. The ones bringing it up both in this thread and in other places are doing it to try and score cheap political points against the West in general and the U.S. in particular while dodging answering any of the questions posed by their tepid to nonexistent support of Ukraine. They’re not interested in an honest examination of the issue, but in using “what about Iraq/Afghanistan” as a deflection from their morally bankrupt stance.

I am supre that you could question the motives of many brining that up, and I am well aware that every situtation is different, that doesn't change that for some people there is never a right time to bring this up.

More importantly though, assuming this somehow ends in Putin facing a war crimes tribunal it will not be an outright victory of international law like many in the west hope for, but also as the stronger lawless West forcing a weaker lawless Russia to break, aka might makes right. By exempting itself from it's own self professed principles and judgement manded down upon other is inevitably tainted as a victor's justice regardless of how well deserved the consequences were, incentivizing efforts across the global south to reduce western leverage over their economies.

The consistent repetition of this issue being brought up particularly in this thread but also in broader media in relation to Ukraine in order to shield Russia from criticism and undermine support for Ukraine certainly makes one wonder about the motives of those involved! Oh, yes, the Global South or as it’s been also referred to, the Developing World. Here, I already examined both the deflection and the supposed unity in the GS/DW and guess what it’s mostly a Russian propaganda campaign with direct support from pro-Russian governments. Which doesn’t exactly lend credibility to those of you who keep trying to forge a false equivalence between the two (or is it three? Tankies have somehow contorted themselves into being on the side of the goddamned Taliban in opposing intervention in Afghanistan) situations. In addition to the dubious rationales used in repeatedly raising the issue, in this thread the issue has repeatedly been discussed. Just because you don’t like the conclusions doesn’t mean it wasn’t discussed seriously. But bringing Iraq up in order to give cover to Russia is…despicable, I would say.

Oh yes did you notice that the GS/DW isn’t remotely on the same page on this? See the link above.

The lawless West? Based on what? There have been two basic principles in the system of international law set up after WWII: don’t annex other countries by force and don’t commit genocide. The latter hasn’t always been adhered to but the former was about the only law actually adhered to…well, except for Russia. They’re the ones engaging in might makes right. Drawing a moral equivalence between Russia and the West…are you fucking serious?! What bullshit is this? Goddamn, do you tankies keep spawning from a basement somewhere? I - and others - have already had this discussion with the Brazilian and New Jerseyite fascists. Your position of equivalence sucked then and sucks now, except you suck even harder because the evidence keeps pouring in of how utterly much you suck. Have you noticed the emerging genocidal actions of Russia? Remember this? Or this? Or all the other atrocities posted in this thread? Read some human rights reports before trying to draw false equivalences.