The Fair Wage and Community Revitalization Act (reintroduced)

[WMS]

Ack! We have a vote already? I've got some questions, actually.

1. To those who argue against increasing it: are you saying that we never need to increase the minimum wage? Or is this a matter of degree rather than in kind? Because inflation does eat away at people's earning power over time, and if you perpetually keep the minimum wage stagnant you will lower its buying potential over time.

2. To those who argue in favor of it: is this the right amount? How will small businesses really be affected by it?

3. To all: would a compromise wherein small businesses receive a tax credit for the extra amount they have to pay in wages due to a minimum wage increase be fair, or a good idea overall, or affordable?

-WMS (currently in Abstain mode)

[WMS]

Ack! We have a vote already? I've got some questions, actually.

No, we have a vote on Sam Spade's proposed amendment to strike Section 1.

Which, as it seriously impacts the overall bill, is just as important.

[WMS]

Ack! We have a vote already? I've got some questions, actually.

No, we have a vote on Sam Spade's proposed amendment to strike Section 1.

Which, as it seriously impacts the overall bill, is just as important.

Well, yes.

I'm not voting until I get a few answers to my questions from both sides, since while I want to increase the minimum wage I also don't want to hurt small businesses...

[WMS]

Ack! We have a vote already? I've got some questions, actually.

1. To those who argue against increasing it: are you saying that we never need to increase the minimum wage? Or is this a matter of degree rather than in kind? Because inflation does eat away at people's earning power over time, and if you perpetually keep the minimum wage stagnant you will lower its buying potential over time.

2. To those who argue in favor of it: is this the right amount? How will small businesses really be affected by it?

3. To all: would a compromise wherein small businesses receive a tax credit for the extra amount they have to pay in wages due to a minimum wage increase be fair, or a good idea overall, or affordable?

-WMS (currently in Abstain mode)

As I'm in favor, I'll tackle 2 and 3.

For question 2, regarding whether it's the right amount, certainly that can be debated. It'd be brought up to about the level, accounting for inflation, that it was during the 1960's. It didn't seem to be overly destructive or burdensome to business at that point in time.

But certainly one could argue with the amount one way or another; however, remember that it would go up gradually over 4 years, rather than be an immediate increase. So businesses would have an adjustment period to get used to it. If the effects are disastorous after the first year or two, it could be repealed.

And, remember, as I've said before, that sections 2 and 3 help businesses, both large and small, and the overall positive impact, I think, would more than make up for any negative effects of section 1.

Regarding question 3, that definitely seems like something that I could support. Obviously the cost of it is something that would have to be looked at (you are shifting the burden of the extra pay from the businesses to the government; the money still has to come from somewhere), but assuming that the government can afford it, and the positive impact of the additional wages would more than offset the expense (which I personally think they would) I'd support it.

Thank you for your response. Now I await the other side.

[WMS]

Ack! We have a vote already? I've got some questions, actually.

1. To those who argue against increasing it: are you saying that we never need to increase the minimum wage? Or is this a matter of degree rather than in kind? Because inflation does eat away at people's earning power over time, and if you perpetually keep the minimum wage stagnant you will lower its buying potential over time.

2. To those who argue in favor of it: is this the right amount? How will small businesses really be affected by it?

3. To all: would a compromise wherein small businesses receive a tax credit for the extra amount they have to pay in wages due to a minimum wage increase be fair, or a good idea overall, or affordable?

-WMS (currently in Abstain mode)

I've worked in small businesses for a long while. 

Minimum wage increases always hurt small businesses by causing them to have to lay off workers in order to meet those pay requirements.  They also drive up the costs for products and esp. services for normal people. 

Take restaurants for example, one of the reasons why restaurants are such a bargain in the US is because service costs are so low because of minimum wage issues.  If we raise minimum wages now, it will cause your costs in restaurants to go up as well.

I am not saying that I think that the minimum wage should never be raised.  But considering what John Ford has told us about the precarious nature of the economy right now, raising the minimum wage might send us into recession by making small businesses lay off workers in order to meet cash flow estimates.

Small businesses, regardless of what many here would tell you, employ most of the people employed in the US and create most of the new jobs in this country.  If we restrict their ability to create new jobs, we restrict the freedom of individuals as a whole and jeopardize our economic well-being.

John Dibble and Gabu have quoted these two articles earlier.  I suggest that you read them also. 

http://www.freedomworks.org/informed/issues_template.php?issue_id=1163

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Labor/tst042904a.cfm

I have no problems with Clauses 2 and 3.  My problem is with Clause 1, which is the reason why I'm requesting the amendment.

I read both of those articles, which is why I'm in Abstain mode. I note that both of those articles make it sound like the minimum wage should never be raised...

Could you answer my third question, since I'm not sure what you think of that proposal?

[WMS]

Could you answer my third question, since I'm not sure what you think of that proposal?

Considering that our deficit is already over $500 billion and I really don't like the government giving money directly to businesses, especially since I don't know how we would make this program not become some type of corporate welfare.   I would probably be in opposition of that, WMS, honestly.

Let me clarify that:
Maybe, and only maybe, if this funding were cut out over a certain period of time, like 5 years for example might I support it.  I'd definitely give that some thought.

Well, tax credits are used all the time, so I figured it might be a good compromise. I wonder if the Treasury Secretary - or the GM - has a good idea how it would impact the budget?

And I'm trying to get a lock on when minimum wage increases are good and when they are not. [OOC: I would like to note that the refusal to raise the minimum wage from 1995 to 2000 was based on ideology, not economics, because the economy was strong but, after the 1995 Congress voted for that increase - a lot of Republicans defied their party leadership on that one - the Republican leadership refused to allow any floor votes on minimum wage increases, because they would likely lose them.

And also: it has been TEN years since the last increase - that's quite a while, don't you think? The thing keeping me from backing the wage increase is that I'm not certain how much damage it would do to small businesses. It does need to go up at some point just to account for the eroding power of inflation, but I want to know when to do it and by how much before I cast a vote. I understand that's a complex answer, but I'm trying to get past ideology. ]

[WMS]

Could you answer my third question, since I'm not sure what you think of that proposal?

Considering that our deficit is already over $500 billion and I really don't like the government giving money directly to businesses, especially since I don't know how we would make this program not become some type of corporate welfare.   I would probably be in opposition of that, WMS, honestly.

Let me clarify that:
Maybe, and only maybe, if this funding were cut out over a certain period of time, like 5 years for example might I support it.  I'd definitely give that some thought.

Well, tax credits are used all the time, so I figured it might be a good compromise. I wonder if the Treasury Secretary - or the GM - has a good idea how it would impact the budget?

And I'm trying to get a lock on when minimum wage increases are good and when they are not. [OOC: I would like to note that the refusal to raise the minimum wage from 1995 to 2000 was based on ideology, not economics, because the economy was strong but, after the 1995 Congress voted for that increase - a lot of Republicans defied their party leadership on that one - the Republican leadership refused to allow any floor votes on minimum wage increases, because they would likely lose them.

And also: it has been TEN years since the last increase - that's quite a while, don't you think? The thing keeping me from backing the wage increase is that I'm not certain how much damage it would do to small businesses. It does need to go up at some point just to account for the eroding power of inflation, but I want to know when to do it and by how much before I cast a vote. I understand that's a complex answer, but I'm trying to get past ideology. ]

Well, I don't think we're at a point where we need to raise the minimum wage.  The economy is weak, as John Ford has said, and businessmen are nervous after the election fiasco of the last weekend.  Raising the minimum wage right now could push this teetering economy over the edge, imo.

So I guess those are my reasons above for requesting this amendment and I'm sticking to them. 

Okay then, thanks for your time as well. I haven't made up my mind, for the record, but am a de facto Abstain at the moment.

[WMS]

Aye on the new Amendment.

A vote on this one still hasn't been called. Has the vote on the first one even concluded yet?

With MAS voting in approval, the amendment passes 6-2, 1 not voting.

The forum was ported over before I could get to vote, so my apologies for missing this one...although I would have voted to Abstain, as neither side has fully convinced me yet.
*correction* That's an Abstain on Sam's amendment, not on MAS' amendment.*

[WMS]

Things move fast around here.

Well, for the record:

ABSTAIN on MAS117's amendment.

And AYE on Supersoulty's amendment.

I think this is a reasonable proposal - it has been TEN years since the last minimum wage increase.

I am also quite open to the ideas Hughento proposed a bit back in which tax breaks could be given to small businesses as part of the tax reforms he has in mind - similar to my tax credits, but more comprehensive. A compromise on this issue is essential, folks!

[WMS]

I'm willing to compromise on things that won't turn the economy downward or hurt the businesses of this country and force them to lay off workers or downsize their worker pools or become more dependent on an illegal labor force.

By the way, this amendment will enact the largest minimum wage increase in the history of Atlasia.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/chart.htm

Is that adjusted for inflation? And once a decade is hardly savaging the small businesses of Atlasia. And they're going to get a tax cut for it anyway.

The problem here is that many of the arguments used against the minimum wage de facto are used to say that it should never, ever, be raised, no matter how much inflation erodes the purchasing power of these minimum wage employees. For that matter, those arguments de facto are used to say that we shouldn't have a minimum wage at all, and I can't back that position - I've worked enough of those jobs to know that some places would pay 10 cents an hour if they could get away with it.

Clearly, since there have been mimimum wage increases in the past that didn't cause economic havoc - "Oct 1, 1996 - $4.75 for all covered, nonexempt workers" and "Sep 1, 1997 - $5.15 for all covered, nonexempt workers" did not cause an economic meltdown. If the increases are not too much and not too rapid, businesses can deal with them.

[WMS]

The rate increases in 1996 and 1997 did not cause major economic turndown because the economy was in a period of growth than began roughly at the end of 1994, indeed it was probably the largest expansion in a long, long time (at least since the mid-80s, possibly since the mid-60s), buoyed by cuts in spending, cuts in capital gains tax rates, and good corporate reorganization during the early 1990s.

Whenever you're in a great period of expansion like we were then, these type of increases can be easily absorbed and should be encouraged.  I would have supported the increases at that point.  I presently do not think we're in that type of expansion.  If others would think that we are on the brink of that type of expansion now, then that's their opinion and I respect that.

I could go on the other hand and argue that the fact that the minimum wage was not increased did not exactly mean disaster for lower-income workers during the 1980s.  I would argue that raising it certainly did not help during the recessions of 1982-1983 and 1991-1992.

Stratfor on the U.S. economy: "The dominant feature of the global economy is -- and has been for some time -- continued strong growth in the United States. The United States closed out the fourth quarter with growth at 3.8 percent, racking up a 4.4 percent overall growth rate for all of 2004.

Such growth is not just "adequate" or "rapid" -- it is probably unsustainable. During the heady days of the 1990s boom, average growth was "only" 3.7 percent. What is particularly remarkable about the current American growth is not simply its pace, but its staying power.

According to the U.S. Federal Reserve, the final word in U.S. monetary policy and de facto manager of the U.S. economy, the economy continues to perform superbly. Only the Cleveland district -- consisting of Ohio, West Virginia, western Pennsylvania and eastern Kentucky, where a mix of heavy manufacturing and rising input costs have combined to create the entire expansion's sole laggard -- is not reporting strong across-the-board growth. And even there, overall reports are upbeat, just not red hot.

Across the country, consumer, manufacturing and business spending is not just rising, but accelerating. The agricultural sector is strong, and the shipping industry is humming along with both imports and exports.

...If anything, Stratfor fears the United States is growing too fast. Apart from bubbles, an economy as large and diverse as the United States rarely grows so uniformly and so quickly across all regions and sectors.

But this is not a bubble. Among other things, bubbles occur when capital is being allocated irrationally -- such as during the tail end of the dot.com boom, when everyone and his grandmother seemed to be considering investing in gardenwidgets.com, or some other improbable investment. That does not seem to be the case now.

Moreover, bubbles tend to occur when inflation is high, since there is irrational demand for a wide array of materials and base products. The core Consumer Price Index -- the United States' most commonly cited measure of inflation -- for January was a whopping zero..."

They also have a graph showing that GDP growth has been positive since the 4th Quarter of 2001.

The rest of the world would kill for an economy as strong as ours...
[OOC: we are using the U.S. economy, right? If Atlasia's economy has already diverged via a previous GM, then the situation may be different.]

[WMS]

Well, at least this bill has had a good debate over it, even if no one convinced anyone else.

I lean toward's Gabu's viewpoint, as I don't see things in such zero-sum terms economically...

[WMS]

Nay on Sam Spade's Amending Amendment. The latest minimum wage one, you know.

I am likely to back his most recent one, but as it hasn't been formally put up for a vote yet...

[WMS]

ABSTAIN on Sam Spade's latest Amendment. It's a good idea, but it needs to be worked on a bit like Super indicated.

[WMS]

ABSTAIN on Sam Spade's latest Amendment. It's a good idea, but it needs to be worked on a bit like Super indicated.

If you think it needs work, you could always vote for it and then propose an amendment for it.

Well, I'm hoping Super comes up with an amendment so it isn't so arbitrary. I'm not clear myself on exactly how I would word such an amendment, though, which is why I haven't posted one of my own.

[WMS]

ABSTAIN on Sam Spade's latest Amendment. It's a good idea, but it needs to be worked on a bit like Super indicated.

If you think it needs work, you could always vote for it and then propose an amendment for it.

Well, I'm hoping Super comes up with an amendment so it isn't so arbitrary. I'm not clear myself on exactly how I would word such an amendment, though, which is why I haven't posted one of my own.

*new part*And below is what I want Sam and Super to thresh out between them.

Nay on Senator Spades Second Amendment.

Anything, like, say, a terroist attack could cause that to happen.  This needs to be drastically ammended to gain my support.  Perhapes a slight drop.  Not a return to the status quo.

Would you be for it if I put in such language to say that a terrorist attack on the US would have to happen in the span of one year prior to one of these conditions being met and defined what a terrorist attack is?

I would like to see less of a reduction (perhaps half) on the minimum wage and an "unusual circumstances" provision.