It’s June 21, 2021 and Saruku is elected President of Atlasia. What happened?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Tempted to stop this but no, just don't go crazy and spam the board with these.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Look for desperate Feds to nominate Saruku in June while Yankee is too distracted defending Edmund Burke on the History board to stop them. It would not be the first time they backed a candidate who violently opposes everything they stand for because "Labor bad"!

I resent the implication that Feds have ever nominated someone while I was distracted unless you count being sick as distracted in which case you can...

Also I was fine with YT running I just didn't think he would do it.

Of course you are talking about Siren.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I can't wait now for the argument to be between Yankee and a Laborite to be determined (probably Truman) about the federalists.

There isn't going to be an argument. I supported Siren and Muaddib and I have no regrets about it. They made a compelling argument on small business and I am not going to let some misguided rl litmus test get in the way of a possibly good ticket.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Look for desperate Feds to nominate Saruku in June while Yankee is too distracted defending Edmund Burke on the History board to stop them. It would not be the first time they backed a candidate who violently opposes everything they stand for because "Labor bad"!

I resent the implication that Feds have ever nominated someone while I was distracted unless you count being sick as distracted in which case you can...

Also I was fine with YT running I just didn't think he would do it.

Of course you are talking about Siren.

Well I did not want to say "because Yankee is too sick to log onto Discord" in case I really do have powers of foresight!

I was actually thinking of the time when y'all ranked an actual Trotskyist ahead of moderate Laborite Talleyrand for Northeast Senate, but of course there are many more recent examples of this phenomenon.

Oh really! You of all people going to pull this line about Talleyrand one of the biggest atlasforumIRC shills around back then! I would have back any anti irc candidate over an irc and you know damn well why. You think they became bad when they screwed you over? Two years of victims corpses lining that road ahead of you.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Talleyrand was no damn moderate on the issues I cared about. He supported every issue that we militantly opposed emanating out of AtlasforumIRC, supported TNF for PPT, spearheaded the disinformation campaign that promoted TNF's campaign for PPT, supported judicial term limits after turno-Pacifico, supported Turno-Pacifico itself.

He was a "radical" from June 2013 onwards, and we treated him as such. I didn't give two flying F@%%s what his "RL" views were, just like I didn't give a crap what Oakvale's ideology had evolved IRL at the time. I don't even remember who his opponent was, and don't care. If I was rooting for Adam againts Foucaulf, why the hell would I back Talleyrand?

In December 2013, we even considered him a "radical Laborite" and celebrated that the At-large contained only one such Senator, along with being 3/5 Conservative.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Look for desperate Feds to nominate Saruku in June while Yankee is too distracted defending Edmund Burke on the History board to stop them. It would not be the first time they backed a candidate who violently opposes everything they stand for because "Labor bad"!

I resent the implication that Feds have ever nominated someone while I was distracted unless you count being sick as distracted in which case you can...

Also I was fine with YT running I just didn't think he would do it.

Of course you are talking about Siren.

Well I did not want to say "because Yankee is too sick to log onto Discord" in case I really do have powers of foresight!

I was actually thinking of the time when y'all ranked an actual Trotskyist ahead of moderate Laborite Talleyrand for Northeast Senate, but of course there are many more recent examples of this phenomenon.

Oh really! You of all people going to pull this line about Talleyrand one of the biggest atlasforumIRC shills around back then! I would have back any anti irc candidate over an irc and you know damn well why. You think they became bad when they screwed you over? Two years of victims corpses lining that road ahead of you.

My memory is as good as ever, fortunately! But we both know y'all's opposition to #atlasforum types did not extend so far as to include when those individuals ran for office again as Federalists! We are both members of fundamentally self-interested political machines who will ally with anyone to win —Labor merely has the luxury of being more choosy.

Oh for the love of good Truman. You are really playing this line?

Once Talleyrand was too far ahead of Pikachu to lose thanks to you guys by the way for the most part, he ate up much of Labor's zombie base. I voted for Talleyrand, played up unity and all that crap knowing damn well he had lied to us. The point was to convince our newbies and people who might full for his crap that. We then pushed a series of repeal TNF stuff bills all coordinated with Adam Griffin. Griffin would veto them and then Talleyrand would have vote Aye on them twice, of course as I recall, he fell for the trap and voted no. I then PMed the paper trail to every Fed demonstrating he was a fraud.

We were then going to squeeze him out in December.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well I did not want to say "because Yankee is too sick to log onto Discord" in case I really do have powers of foresight!

If there is one thing that could cause me to put you on the same level as Oakvale and the boys back in the day. It is joking about my health to score cheap points in game. I respect you a lot, have some class and DON'T THROW IT AWAY!!!

Remember what I said in 2017, become are not born Oakvale, they become Oakvale. Oakvale was just a normal centrist politician in 2010-2012.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Look for desperate Feds to nominate Saruku in June while Yankee is too distracted defending Edmund Burke on the History board to stop them. It would not be the first time they backed a candidate who violently opposes everything they stand for because "Labor bad"!

I resent the implication that Feds have ever nominated someone while I was distracted unless you count being sick as distracted in which case you can...

Also I was fine with YT running I just didn't think he would do it.

Of course you are talking about Siren.

Well I did not want to say "because Yankee is too sick to log onto Discord" in case I really do have powers of foresight!

I was actually thinking of the time when y'all ranked an actual Trotskyist ahead of moderate Laborite Talleyrand for Northeast Senate, but of course there are many more recent examples of this phenomenon.

Oh really! You of all people going to pull this line about Talleyrand one of the biggest atlasforumIRC shills around back then! I would have back any anti irc candidate over an irc and you know damn well why. You think they became bad when they screwed you over? Two years of victims corpses lining that road ahead of you.

My memory is as good as ever, fortunately! But we both know y'all's opposition to #atlasforum types did not extend so far as to include when those individuals ran for office again as Federalists! We are both members of fundamentally self-interested political machines who will ally with anyone to win —Labor merely has the luxury of being more choosy.

Oh for the love of good Truman. You are really playing this line?

Once Talleyrand was too far ahead of Pikachu to lose thanks to you guys by the way for the most part, he ate up much of Labor's zombie base. I voted for Talleyrand, played up unity and all that crap knowing damn well he had lied to us. The point was to convince our newbies and people who might full for his crap that. We then pushed a series of repeal TNF stuff bills all coordinated with Adam Griffin. Griffin would veto them and then Talleyrand would have vote Aye on them twice, of course as I recall, he fell for the trap and voted no. I then PMed the paper trail to every Fed demonstrating he was a fraud.

We were then going to squeeze him out in December.

Not what I was talking about! But I am glad you brought it up, since I didn't know about that particular bit of skulduggery.

Most everything that happened in late 2015 was the result of a plan involving Adam, Windjammer, Duke, PiT and myself.

Including your own election to the Senate in August 2015. It was all about squeezing Atlasforum types out for fear they would wreck the Con-Con. That is why Adam was in AtlasforumIRC with me when we caught Bacon King engaging in the compromising behavior. I convinced him to help me get votes (Gustaf) out for Rfayette, because Maxwell was all over the map at that point and unreliable for anything. One day a marxist, the next day pretending to be Trump. The one thing we did know for sure, knee deep in AtlasforumIRC

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If you mean Matt From VT? Yes, not a single regret about those second prefs. Matt was and is a decent guy and I have a great deal of respect for him, especially since we both went through a lot of terrible IRL crap around the same time frame.

Also worth remembering that Matt was one of the ex Libertarians like Leinad and had been a Fed less than a year prior.

PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT


[ 3 ] Bore of Rhode Island and Bacon King of Oceania
^{Labor Party - The People's Party}

[ 1 ] JCL of Indiana and Devin of Washington
^{Federalist Party}


[ 2 ] Maxwell of Alabama and Dallasfan65 of Massachusetts
^{Democratic-Republican Party}


[  ] Write-in:______________________________
^{-__________________}


[  ] None of the above



NORTHEAST SENATE


[ 1 ] cinyc of New York
^Independent


[ 2 ] Matt from VT of Vermont
^{The People's Party}

[ 3 ] Talleyrand of Delaware
^{Labor Party}


[  ] Write-in:______________________________
^{-__________________}


[  ] None of the above

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I can't wait now for the argument to be between Yankee and a Laborite to be determined (probably Truman) about the federalists.

Didn’t take long.

Well I didn't expect him dance close to edge of the abyss for the sake of a joke either.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well I did not want to say "because Yankee is too sick to log onto Discord" in case I really do have powers of foresight!

If there is one thing that could cause me to put you on the same level as Oakvale and the boys back in the day. It is joking about my health to score cheap points in game. I respect you a lot, have some class and DON'T THROW IT AWAY!!!

Remember what I said in 2017, become are not born Oakvale, they become Oakvale. Oakvale was just a normal centrist politician in 2010-2012.

Breaking character for a moment, because that was literally the opposite of my intention. You are as I think I have said before one of my favorite people on this forum, and have been in my thoughts these last few months. I wish you nothing but the best of health and fortune, and am deeply sorry if I ever seemed to imply otherwise.

Then lets keep it that way and not forget this is just a game.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Maybe we should run Oakvale against Truman to show him a lesson. I'd be fully on board with that!

Well he does hold some IRL conservative views so according to the standard just thrown at me in this thread... we really shouldn't back Truman in that case obviously considering his views. I mean if I understand the narrative correctly.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Maybe we should run Oakvale against Truman to show him a lesson. I'd be fully on board with that!

Fed support for Oakvale has taught me many important lessons over the years.

DFW promised to make us friends, I was going to at least do my part to make it work.

I never wanted 2013-2015. We used to get along just fine prior to that. I even supported his reelection bid in Feb 2013 and my first sense of hostility to him, was over him leaving the Senate bc obviously, I wanted him to stay.

It is not healthy to hate and if I let myself get pulled down that rabbit hole, then I would become just as bad, so where possible, my inclination is to forgive.

But I never forget and I will never trust anything to remain just a joke when I saw a joke escalated into a straight jacket pic being circulated while I was moving IRL. "You take the game too seriously!" No, just no.

But you know I would like is just a little bit of self awareness or contrition like you get from Adam, Windjammer or even Sestak. They acknowledge something they done or did and be like "that's fair" or "I understand that". Not even an apology just an acknowledgement of, "I get why you so bloody boiling pissed off about us doing that".

I get why they hated me, I called them out for their alternative facts and peddling the same 8 year old snake oil. Don't regret doing anything I did in those eight years but I get it.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Maybe we should run Oakvale against Truman to show him a lesson. I'd be fully on board with that!

Well he does hold some IRL conservative views so according to the standard just thrown at me in this thread... we really shouldn't back Truman in that case obviously considering his views. I mean if I understand the narrative correctly.

For the life of me I could never figure out what the competing "narrative" is. Obviously y'all would support Oakvale or any other luckless soul who ran against me in Frémont, for the simple reason that I am Labor and you are the opposition. Nothing wrong with that! —though I will, of course, continue to make cracks about the "coalition of chaos" because I am trying to win. The simplest explanation is always best, and I haven't forgotten which party made Potus a senator and Oakvale attorney general.

Potus and Simfan annoyed me so much. They were so convinced that what they were doing was for the good of conservatism in game, even as they routinely caused problems with libertarians (simfan not preferencing Deus and encouraging his people to do likewise, Potus sparking the Mideast Civil War between Cassius and BMotely, right before Windjammer invaded and then voting for Bacon King I think he was one of the defectors, giving the left 7-3 supermajority right at the start of the Lumine administration). They all suffered from some degree of tunnel vision.

Ted might remember this and Leinad definitely should. But when Potus wanted to run for President, we went rounds over the "AtlasforumIRC issue" and "the Libertarian issue" and his need to address those to have a chance. He barely even acknowledged they even existed. It was like he was on another planet from the rest of us and in truth he was, Atlasforum was peddling alternative facts on so many issues. The reality was, we in the Feds were the conservative faction in Atlasia, AtlasforumIRC was enabler of the left either directly or indirectly and those two were complicit knowingly or otherwise, the August 2014 mess was just red herrings from the real issues that divided Atlasia since June 2013. Had I not been reduced by various RL problems and situations, they never would have been able to control the narrative like that, I would have turned the power bill into a co-opt bill.

The key thing to remember is the hypocrisy that exposes the big lie about nationalization. The radical AtlasforumIRC types had backed TNF for over a year, because of the post turno-pacifico alignment (Consolidation, Senate rules, PPT, Judiciary etc). It was us in the Feds and myself that thwarted him on nationalizing Pharma and many other industries throughout 2013 and early 2014, yet those con artists were able to convince some conservatives that I was the sell out? I was on the front lines while the radical types voted for Tyrion and Adam Griffin, sending more votes for the TNF agenda. The only reason they cared about nationalization, was that it was a chance to turn on labor and undermine me at the same time. They really did not care about it, if they did they wouldn't have backed and enabled TNF so much just prior to that.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Potus basically thought you were too kooky and uptight about those guys. For him they were just personal friends and potential votes.

Any reasonable person would have been uptight about those guys after dealing with what I went through the previous three years.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Frankly if you really want to take this back, you could go back to 2011.

After Napoleon/Hamilton absorbed most of the libertarians into the JCP orbit, via social libertarianism, the RPP responded by dipping into the anti-JCP left via Marokai Blue and even won the Midwest Senate seat that way. It is also why a small portion of the RPP went directly to the Labor Party.

Life Competition finds a way. Just like with Siren, Marokai had a single issue that he really had come to agree with us on having moved to the right on regional rights and pro-regional reforms. He was still very much far left on economic policy and certainly on social issues.

The dynamic of politics when you are a minority coalition is to constantly seek to peel someone off from the majority coalition to become the majority. It is how parties and ideologies evolve over time and if Truman actually did apply my posts in the History board to this context he would realize that the same rules apply here.

Also the inescapable reality is that whoever we are able to peel is off is because of what Labor is doing or has done, just like it was for the JCP. Though Jimmy would be a closer parallel to Marokai in 2011, he is far less left on many issues than Marokai was.

Just something to consider and also points to the uselessness of metrics and standards that Truman was using last night.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Yeah there's often been some kinda "sketchy cabal" that support things that run contrary to the game, and there's always a worrying gray area between those who aren't them and (most of the time recklessly!) tactically support them, and those who are them but can distance themselves because x, y, z.

I mean, I don't think I need to point out which Fed suggested running Oakvale in this thread. (Hint: it was not the one who knows the history of the game!)

The Atlasforum crew speaking beyond just the radicals to include everyone who was on there, came together in opposition to Napoleon. In 2012, the bulk of the people on there were TPPers, Laborites and the Federalists. There were some Liberals on there and some libertarians but it was a largely anti-Napoleon crew. As soon as they destroyed Napoleon's political machine, the very instant that happened, they became the next group of villains.

Ideologically, everything that had defined the right for years in game (not just the RPP, but the Populares and IB as well as most of the Whigs) dictated the right would have to realign to oppose that.  Simfan had been in the RPP and the Whigs but he was banned for a year. Potus joined in 2014, so both of them had missed the events in mid 2013. This also put a lot of strain on others in Atlasforum as well because they were put in a position to have to choose between their friends, their ideology and eventually common decency once some of the more disturbing actions started happening by radical crew.

When DFW came along he irritated me to know end because he constantly said he did not care about pre-reset and defined his history as beginning with the reset. For my purposes there was a big argument in early 2015 between Lumine and myself. He said I was too glued to the past and frankly that is fair, I feel safer in the past, but at the same time I am strong believer in reading past actions and using that as a warning sign for what could come. When Bloody July happened, I took it as sort of vindication like see "the history does matter".

DFW and now YT are more focused on the here and now and my job is to somehow balance the needs of competing here and now for the sake of the game, with not forgetting people's histories lest they be enabled to destroy the game again, for the sake of the game.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Yeah there's often been some kinda "sketchy cabal" that support things that run contrary to the game, and there's always a worrying gray area between those who aren't them and (most of the time recklessly!) tactically support them, and those who are them but can distance themselves because x, y, z.

I mean, I don't think I need to point out which Fed suggested running Oakvale in this thread. (Hint: it was not the one who knows the history of the game!)

Show me where on the doll YT touched you.

Who here mentioned YT?

I just know he lives rent free in your mind. 

Honestly, someone who obsesses over someone else's alleged obsessions is worse. (As intriguing as it is that you immediately went to YT when I was discussing "sketchy cabals"...)

The radicals obsessed so much over my dedication to the game that they felt it appropriate to obsess over it to the point of circulating straight jacket pics and claiming it was for my "own good". It doesn't get more narcissistic than that but then again that group was all for claiming to know what was best for other people and the forum.

Oakvale and Gully were not called ban bros for nothing.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The mental images in the recent posts are rather disturbing.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Not saying people should always have such dramatic shifts, but if someone views the world in the exact same way after having almost 6 years full of important life experiences there's a good chance they're pretty dense!

If this is true, I guess I must be made of lead, mercury, osmium or some other super dense material given I hold roughly the same views as a 22 year old that I've held my entire life (there are only a small handful of positions I've changed and even those are super minuscule and in unimportant issues)

Yeah I figured there are people who review their views and are like "oh yeah, that sounds right." I am glad I added the "good chance" caveat

I have long surmised that more drastic view shifts happen to those who start out with extreme views. So a Libertarian, which by definition would be rather hardcore ideologically with some exceptions, would be far more prone to going far left.

For me, I experienced the same hell and worse then most people on this forum can ever imagine. But I started out with an ideology that is "flexible" on the policy front and thus wasn't "put under pressure" by extreme events.

I can break with supply side, go to war with the NC GOP, seek a revolution against the GOP establishment and the Conservative Movement itself, and then turn on the guy spearheading that revolution, all while remaining true to my principles, still being flexible on economic policy to meet a dynamic situation and still be a conservative as I would define it.

Near homelessness, financial destitution, death of a close friend, death of a parent, struggling against a system designed to fail to get my license, coming down with a pandemic disease.

My ideology can weather the storm precisely because it is not based of substituting principles for policy and understand that if the economy is dynamic, so to must the policies and the policies must aim towards some degree of stability for the family unit and the community setting.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Not saying people should always have such dramatic shifts, but if someone views the world in the exact same way after having almost 6 years full of important life experiences there's a good chance they're pretty dense!

If this is true, I guess I must be made of lead, mercury, osmium or some other super dense material given I hold roughly the same views as a 22 year old that I've held my entire life (there are only a small handful of positions I've changed and even those are super minuscule and in unimportant issues)

I shifted a bit on foreign policy and went back to my roots on trade protectionism, though not completely. I also came to reject supply side economics, but I still support pay as you go (for non-emergency spending ), and still support a competitive marketplace. You can be a capitalist, a fiscal conservative (defined literally not subjectively) and still not continue to presume that the economic policy that worked in 1981 is going to work in 2021.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Not reading past the first page, but it's always a blast watching Yankee squirm and slither to justify his support of terrorists, radicals, personality cultists and IRC types while condemning such when others have embraced them for the same reasons. And it's especially amusing when you have a memory long enough to remember that his party was entirely against dealing with them (because they were a potential anti-Labor foil for Fed victories) after Labor was ready to do something until they ousted Yankee from his Southern Senate seat (by backing arguably the most effective former Fed Chair, no less!). Then it finally became SRS BSNS! #HowDareYouGraveRob

I do have memory enough, certainly enough to know you do not know what you were talking about and are peddling the same old cheap shots. In Late 2014 you were plotting with DR to ram consolidation through via the legislatures.

The first time you approached me about working together to stop TPP/IRC was in February 2015 and as I recall I didn't say no to your assistance, though your impact was rather limited because "you didn't have much control over the two remaining Laborites in the South" was how either you or Windjammer put it to me.

Frankly, there was a conspiratorial side to me that doubted just how truthful the break between you and the IRC types was after August 2014 but then again I didn't see it first hand and barely even understood that period until months after it was over. As I saw it, Labor and IRC were two heads of the same centralist/anti-Regional Horse. We all debated whether you were actually helping us or just screwing with us. Only slowly did we realize the threat to labor was your motivating factor. For all we knew, it was just another scheme to get consolidation through.

Also I was so spent in early 2015, I was plotting to leave:

« Sent to: Associate Justice PiT on: February 12, 2015, 10:27:54 PM »
If I were to somehow survive Hagrid, would you be interested in running in June to be my successor? Would be fittingly ironic would it not?

Seriously Adam, this tired narrative of yours of "You played wtih fire and it burned you" needs to die. At no point did I engage in anything that caused TPP to re-exist, nor was I in a position to squash it if I had wanted too. All anybody cared about was stopping TNF, so to some extent you are correct about labor being the priority, even when we did ally, I had to play 4D chess about it so as to not alienate the Midwest and Mideast Feds. However, opposition to TNF by extension meant opposition to the IRC crowd since they supported him for PPT.

At no point did I condone, support or encourage either Turno-Pacifico or the people who brought it about. Ask Hagrid, I was the one calling for us to oppose them the strongest and it annoyed him. I was also the one that complained the loudest when we aimed for 3 seats and ended up with Xahar as the fifth Senator. I was so estranged from Feds, I nearly left and joined the DRs in late 2013. And yes, that is the one you can get me on because I did push them to get organize, but at the time, I was not Chair and was rather disappointed with the failure to oppose the radicals and terrorists from Federalist leadership. I was already working with Nappy's people to oppose those people, and even worked with Opebo as well to oppose those people.

Throughout 2014, most of my narrative and messaging focused on opposition to both Labor and the IRC types as one in the same, seeking to destroy the right and drive them from the game. If there is one thing that didn't factor into my strategy, it was the effect of someone like Windjammer and the influence he had on you and on the party. Nor did I expect a break over nationalization bc as I pointed out in the earlier post that you did not read, they had no problem when TNF tried to nationalize railroads, pharma and many other industries earlier in the year. I was actually going to ask you if you shared my view that all of this was contrived on their part, but instead you get all snarky with me and make the same tired old cheap shots.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I addressed the Talleyrand vote with Truman last night. There are no other examples you can cite between June 2013 and January 2017.

Lets fast forward a little bit. In October 2016, you brought those people back into the game, encoruage them to spam to their validity and get registered to vote against me. As if my Presidency would be so horrendous that it justified bringing those people back.

I was so fing mad about that that I literally raided #AtlasforumIRC with Leinad and others as I recall just to stir some crap and we drove them to exit the chatroom even that night. For one night, we conquered the hill. And you pulled me aside and said "yankee, you better stop because they might break the game again if you keep irritating them again". You brought them back, and I had to shut up an take up the a@% for the sake of the game. You basically took me and the game hostage just so Blair could tie with me.

So yes, when DFW stole them from Labor in February 2017, as far as I was concerned, Labor broke that taboo as well and deserved what it got and more. I envisioned a post-reset largely without them going forward. You ruined that for a half presidential term.  So you and Truman think about that.

Edit: Just for the record I have no ill will towards Blair over this. I don't even have ill will toward Adam for being Adam. Its just a statement of how I felt at the time.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

snip

Can't wait for Part II: Yankee vs. Griffin on radicalism

This is already unhealthy and clearly stressing Yankee too much.

This used to be the norm for the AFE Board and for me actually. Its why bring taken off the site like I was from August 2014 until late October of that year was so devastating. Back then you had to fight back publicly.

Likewise for December and January of 2014 and 2015 when holiday work schedule decimated my time and energy and that combined with moving is why TPP was able to invade the South and why Hagrid was frankly able to win.

Had these two things not happened to me, the history of the game would be very different. I used to blame myself for being so poor that things deteriorated so bad for the right and by extension the game when it created an opening for those elements to exploit.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The first time you approached me about working together to stop TPP/IRC was in February 2015 and as I recall I didn't say no to your assistance, though your impact was rather limited because "you didn't have much control over the two remaining Laborites in the South" was how either you or Windjammer put it to me.

Wow, Adam didn't have control over some voters. Very low energy and weak! Must mean he didn't actually care.

I think he let flo take control over them or something like that. One of them was "badgate" not to be confused with badger and I don't remember the other one offhand.