Moderate Labor Caucus?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Why should moderates be in Labor?

Amazing that they weren't scared off by that Labor Supreme Court Justice talking about the need to "control reproductive access to one or more females to pass on our genes."

PiT isn't a Federalist anymore, so our hands are clean of that crap at least.

ACP formed on the basis of being "independent of the Feds" so that they can go as far right as they can. They are free to do that and that is their choice. If our interests happen to align, I am willing to work with them but I am not going to surrender our values, nor our platform which calls for an Atlasia that is open to all. The Federalist Party will not defend or excuse such a fundamental violation or our principles and thus I will not stand for the Feds being blamed for such.

As much as it pains me to say this having known PiT for 10 years and having been recruited by him, I categorically reject his pessimistic worldview.

If you want to reign in the excess on the far right, the only answer, and it is the same answer I told every single moderate about RL politics, is to join and fight for a viable and principled center right.

If you think about it, the constant stream of moderates out of the GOP into the Democrats has not halted the transformation of the GOP, it has accelerated it. For the love of god why repeat that mistake here?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Why should moderates be in Labor?

Amazing that they weren't scared off by that Labor Supreme Court Justice talking about the need to "control reproductive access to one or more females to pass on our genes."

PiT isn't a Federalist anymore, so our hands are clean of that crap at least.

ACP formed on the basis of being "independent of the Feds" so that they can go as far right as they can. They are free to do that and that is their choice. If our interests happen to align, I am willing to work with them but I am not going to surrender our values, nor our platform which calls for an Atlasia that is open to all. The Federalist Party will not defend or excuse such a fundamental violation or our principles and thus I will not stand for the Feds being blamed for such.

As much as it pains me to say this having known PiT for 10 years and having been recruited by him, I categorically reject his pessimistic worldview.

If you want to reign in the excess on the far right, the only answer, and it is the same answer I told every single moderate about RL politics, is to join and fight for a viable and principled center right.

If you think about it, the constant stream of moderates out of the GOP into the Democrats has not halted the transformation of the GOP, it has accelerated it. For the love of god why repeat that mistake here?

Actually it was formed for the same reason as last time, to make the feds look less crazy and to keep the far right people at bay and allied with the feds. or as they said "to shift the overton window"

If anything ACP has shifted the game to the left. They have pissed off all our moderates and driven some to join the other side. Furthermore, every time they say something extreme, Labor uses it to GOTV and recruit, which harms us too.

Last time, aside from Ben, there wasn't much extremism oozing from ACP. This time is a much different kettle of fish.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If the Feds and ACP were totally independent, they would run competing slates for the House instead of coordinating in hopes of electing a right-wing majority. Simple as that.

I am sure you guys would just love that too.

You see you know your strategy has failed when either way it works out Labor has the right by the balls. Not that I expect that reality to sway anybody.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

Not trying to silence anyone, Yankee. I'm glad someone is finally speaking out against the deranged neo-fascists who are trying to take over your party. But this isn't a communist thought experiment: you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Jesus Christ Truman, the radicals weren't stopped in a day.

Resists urge to note how the radicals voted for in Oct 2015

You know what screw it, Adam has proven time and time again he wasn't confined to the options presented to him in a given situation. And the game lives to this day BECAUSE OF THAT FACT!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

Not trying to silence anyone, Yankee. I'm glad someone is finally speaking out against the deranged neo-fascists who are trying to take over your party. But this isn't a communist thought experiment: you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Jesus Christ Truman, the radicals weren't stopped in a day.

Resists urge to note how the radicals voted for in Oct 2015

You know what screw it, Adam has proven time and time again he wasn't confined to the options presented to him in a given situation. And the game lives to this day BECAUSE OF THAT FACT!

Oh, I don't think Adam has ever claimed to possess the moral high ground. Labor made a deal with the Devil in the years leading up to 2015 and they paid for it, as you have frequently observed.

I wasn't talking about pre-2015 though. Adam sought out and won many radical votes in Oct 2015 on the basis that we was the best one to achieve reform, while at the same time working as a bull work against them achieving their objectives.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't see why your party should be immune from criticism just because it has finally turned on these poisonous elements at the last possible moment.

We haven't endorsed PiT in any elections since his Vice Presidency and at that time he was still pro-choice. Technically we didn't formally endorsed Fhtagn or Muaddib either, but even if we had Muaddib didn't say hardly anything in that chat except "Hi Doof" several times. You could make a case about Fhtagn her comments, which are problematic too, but the comments you mentioned specifically about women didn't come from her, they came from PiT.

Therefore to attribute his comments to us is completely unfair.

I have some big disagreements with Muaddib, like with the whole flag issue. But to his credit, his final action on the matter was an improvement of the original flag. He has been a great CoD Speaker and is one of the most active people in the game. If he had made the same comments as PiT I would not have endorsed him or voted for him.

As for Fhtagn, what coordination are you talking about? As she will tell you herself, nobody did jack crap for House until the election itself was underway. The votes she got, she got completely on her own, including her registered Federalist voters.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Oh right, I am totally going to run 5 candidates for house with all of those legions of interested ambitious feds who cannot wait to seek office. If you hadn't notice we had two House candidates who doubled up, and staying in the House race was not their preferred option. They did so because it was them or nobody.

I wish I lived in the universe you do, my life would be so much easier.

Fhtagn was going to be a candidate regardless of whether we ran five or four and she would have gotten 95% of the same votes regardless of what anyone else or who else did.

As for the 2015 period, don't give me that crap. Most of Labor voted to elect faux Federalist Talleyrand (without Labor leadership involvement I will give you that), they voted to elect Barnes as Mideast Senator (probably with Labor leadership involvement cannot be sure) when he had one foot in the radical door and one foot on his next resignation. And several Laborites voted for Maxwell  on the first day instead of abstaining or waiting, which made the difference. Snowguy and Marokai come to mind. And they voted for Oakvale over Rpryor for NE Senate.

I had several conversations with Adam as well, and things were bad over there. Laborites were perfectly willing to default to the radical candidates as noted several times above. In fact that situation was probably worse than what we have now by far.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

ASV was pushed out because Vern said he would leave if we didn't and we ended up losing both anyway.

I stood by ASV when it came to Fhtagn and that is why she left to form the ACP in the first place. We gave ASV numerous chances to change his ways, but when even the moderate members are demanding radical action, something had to give.  Vern was the tipping point though, not Fhtagn.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And please, don't try to tell me the Feds and ACP have not been coordinating with re: the House since April. I'm not that dumb. It's incredibly obvious that electing fhtagn was part of the plan for getting a rightist majority in the House for the last several cycles, or y'all would have run five Federalist candidates instead of four. I may not be the brightest strategic mind out there, but I've been around long enough to know how slates are put together and what considerations go into a national election.

As someone who was involved in Fed internal machinations I can certainly confirm there was always some level of co-ordination between the Federalists and the ACP for House elections. Far less than Labor might imagine as the right basically gave up on winning the House after May but there was still always co-ordination mainly around trying to balance right-wing votes somewhat evenly.

And notice who always got to the quota and usually first.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't see why your party should be immune from criticism just because it has finally turned on these poisonous elements at the last possible moment.

We haven't endorsed PiT in any elections since his Vice Presidency and at that time he was still pro-choice. Technically we didn't formally endorsed Fhtagn or Muaddib either, but even if we had Muaddib didn't say hardly anything in that chat except "Hi Doof" several times. You could make a case about Fhtagn her comments, which are problematic too, but the comments you mentioned specifically about women didn't come from her, they came from PiT.

Therefore to attribute his comments to us is completely unfair.

I have some big disagreements with Muaddib, like with the whole flag issue. But to his credit, his final action on the matter was an improvement of the original flag. He has been a great CoD Speaker and is one of the most active people in the game. If he had made the same comments as PiT I would not have endorsed him or voted for him.

As for Fhtagn, what coordination are you talking about? As she will tell you herself, nobody did jack crap for House until the election itself was underway. The votes she got, she got completely on her own, including her registered Federalist voters.

Not to mention we've seen people like S019 and ASV leave the Feds after both being despised by the current ACP chair.

Not to mention PMasta, Bagel, Vern and Koopa.

Thats crap and you know. I  stood up to Fhtagn to defend you because frankly she was being ridiculous at that point and she left the server and formed ACP a day a or two later.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Vern has always been my canary in the coal mine in terms of center-right Feds, which is why when he raised an issue I tended to take serious action but it wasn't just him when it came to ASV though. When he left in June/July I pressed the panic button, but YT and frankly Vern himself told me it was for different reasons.

Fhtagn certainly wasn't one of them.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And please, don't try to tell me the Feds and ACP have not been coordinating with re: the House since April. I'm not that dumb. It's incredibly obvious that electing fhtagn was part of the plan for getting a rightist majority in the House for the last several cycles, or y'all would have run five Federalist candidates instead of four. I may not be the brightest strategic mind out there, but I've been around long enough to know how slates are put together and what considerations go into a national election.

As someone who was involved in Fed internal machinations I can certainly confirm there was always some level of co-ordination between the Federalists and the ACP for House elections. Far less than Labor might imagine as the right basically gave up on winning the House after May but there was still always co-ordination mainly around trying to balance right-wing votes somewhat evenly.

And notice who always got to the quota and usually first.

Well the main thing we always did was constantly discourage Federalist zombies from voting for fhtagn because she has by far the highest name recognition and ACP members alone are enough to get her t quota.

You don't say!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't really have anything more to say, Yankee. Feel free to PM me if you want to continue this conversation in private. The point I've been making for the past hour or so is that the Fed leadership made a conscious choice to support cultism and the hard right, and now you want to be able to claim the moral high ground on those issues. Fine. That you are dredging up examples from four years ago (of candidates who I opposed at the time) as proof that the left is also morally compromised doesn't really change anything.

I hope that the past few days are more than an aberration, and that we really will see an effort by moderates on the right to stand by their values and oppose candidates whose poisonous behavior makes the game worse for everyone. It wouldn't be the first time Atlasians were able to transcend party self-interest for the greater good —but I'll believe it when I see it.

It's like I didn't just make a speech 24 hours ago outlining exactly how the Party went wrong over the past two years including mentioning the very things you are mentioning now.

You have put words into my mouth, I was referring only to the comments made by PiT. I think I can claim some moral high ground on the notion of locking women in chains as I don't think many could reasonably construe any of our actions as condoning that. It is weird that the refutation of that would include "Feds supporting Fhtagn", someone who still takes issue with me using the words Chairman and Vice Chairman two years ago.  

My citation of the past events is for comparison purposes. Labor had a far bigger problem keeping their members from voting for radicals, then we do now but that said there are a number of Feds who vote for Fhtagn because they want to not because we asked them to. And as ASV confirms, much of the effort/coordination to the extent that it existed in some (not all) of the last four House cycles, consists of steering votes away from her.

Conservatives don't need to seek your permission or approval to exist in this game and we have always had solid conservatives, people like JCL and so on as well. They are an important part of this game, just as the far left is.  

What I am here to say is there is also a center right and a generic right that doesn't approve of the comments leaked, that prefers we not to treat trans people like crap and in general prefers that we respect people who play this game regardless of who or what they are.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Let us be real people. ACP works with Feds to win seats just like Peace works with Labor to win seats. If you say different, you are just lying.

You seem to be suffering from the same problem of shifting language to a more general sense to a create a knowingly true statement, to try an catch us in a lie, which was never said.

Of course ACP and Feds "have worked together" in "certain" races. That wasn't said otherwise, at least certainly not by me.

The whole conversation was response to Truman, "if ACP was totally independent, we would run competing slates and not coordinate for House". The problem with this as I pointed out was that 1. Fhtagn is going to run and she has nearly the whole quota from her own party and also a couple of Feds that are favorable towards her. 2. We have struggled to fill our slates and even my attempts to get October's going in August met with uncertainty as other races appealed to various candidates and finally they conceded to running in multiple elections to fill the gaps. Hardly a recipe for a full slate.

I also said there was no coordination for house in October. At the same time I acknowledged supporting Muaddib because 1. He had a good platform, 2. worked out a reasonable compromise to fix the original flag after that fiasco and 3. was a solid CoD speaker.

However if you read my first post, I said, "where our interest align and our values are not surrendered, we will work together, which was before the response from Truman and this whole nonsense in this thread started.

Finally the whole context of this conversation was whether or not we had standing to criticize's PiT's comments, which I also pointed out he has not been supported by us since before his political evolution to the right.

Now pray tell me where the lies are in my statements Vern?

Frankly, this whole escapade started in this thread because Truman just couldn't let my post lie and had to pick it apart to try and nail us to ACP and PiT's as then yet unexplained/horrifically worded comments.

I am sick and tired of getting picked cleaned by a pack of piranhas left, right and center in this game.  I am also tired of always being felt like I am being put on trial and having to prove myself to people, it is the part of this game that I hate the most and it is one thing that is most likely to make me say screw it one day.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What even is this thread right now.

Truman's original point was him arguing how the Feds have propped up too many crazy candidates and warrants criticism for such. Then it somehow derailed to me arguing that despite Yankee claiming no coordination between ACP and the Feds (which has been rebutted by many in here and tbf it's not the most hard to believe thing in the world), it certainly seemed like the case that the ACP had influence over the Feds from my observations. Then people got really freaky for some reason.

I never said that, YE. I said there was no coordination for HOUSE in October and also said we supported Muaddib.

You are factually misrepresenting my statements and that is part of why people are getting freaky.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't think the Federalist party is in any position to say what they will not stand, personally. A bit like getting your thirty pieces of silver, using it to make a down payment on a new house, and then saying, "listen, I had no idea what they were doing with those crosses."

I didn't let Polnut silence me, I sure as hell am not going to let you.

Not trying to silence anyone, Yankee. I'm glad someone is finally speaking out against the deranged neo-fascists who are trying to take over your party. But this isn't a communist thought experiment: you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Jesus Christ Truman, the radicals weren't stopped in a day.

Resists urge to note how the radicals voted for in Oct 2015

You know what screw it, Adam has proven time and time again he wasn't confined to the options presented to him in a given situation. And the game lives to this day BECAUSE OF THAT FACT!

Oh, I don't think Adam has ever claimed to possess the moral high ground. Labor made a deal with the Devil in the years leading up to 2015 and they paid for it, as you have frequently observed.

I wasn't talking about pre-2015 though. Adam sought out and won many radical votes in Oct 2015 on the basis that we was the best one to achieve reform, while at the same time working as a bull work against them achieving their objectives.

Can I just point out here that I won like maybe 25% of the radicals' votes at most? A dozen or more de-registered, and another 8 who actually voted exhausted their preferences, and I received 7 votes from [1] SWE/Dallasfan voters. I haven't bothered to comb back through things, but there were also 3 SWE voters who went to Cris. Given I was the most forceful in opposition to their plans, it speaks more to my electoral skills that I won more of their votes than it does to any sort of collusion or hypocrisy.

Precisely and that was the point I was trying to get across to Truman, he was the one that kept bringing up words like "coordination" and didn't understand what I was trying to communicate.

For strategic reasons both for the game and for labor's survival that was a necessary strategy.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What even is this thread right now.

Truman's original point was him arguing how the Feds have propped up too many crazy candidates and warrants criticism for such. Then it somehow derailed to me arguing that despite Yankee claiming no coordination between ACP and the Feds last cycle (which tbf it's not the most hard to believe thing in the world), it certainly seemed like the case that the ACP had influence over the Feds from my observations. Then people got really freaky for some reason.

Show us what candidates would warrant acp having influence over the feds.

AZ/fhtagn voters or fhtagn voters in general?

I think Deadprez got tripped up in the language shifting as well.

Amazing how this started with a specific statement of no coordination in October for house to no coordination in the last 8 months and no influence, both of which are easily disproved, wide acknowledged and openly stated. Amazing what happens when you expand the time frame and generalize the language, anything false can become true.

Fhtagn was VC for a long time, she was also President and thus has a number of personal connections with a a vast number of people.

The problem she is substituting stronger and deeper connections with a shrinking number of people (that is the trend line anyway) and that is why she is do deeply unpopular and revels in it. Of course she can make that choice, she has already been President. For those on the right who desire to be President someday, this is a not a viable path to success.