Senate Bill: Atlasian Education Modernization Act (Rejected)

[MaxQue]

I have doubts on the Constituonnality of Section 4.
And its practicalibity, too.

[MaxQue]

TNF: Banning tuition fees AND public funding for private school is not possible. They will go bankrupt very quickly in that case.

I oppose the moratorium on standardized testing. It's needed to allow a comparison to allow universities to pick the best candidates. I'll not accept leveling down our system.

[MaxQue]

TNF: Banning tuition fees AND public funding for private school is not possible. They will go bankrupt very quickly in that case.

I oppose the moratorium on standardized testing. It's needed to allow a comparison to allow universities to pick the best candidates. I'll not accept leveling down our system.

I would be completely fine with that.

Same with me, private schools shouldn't get a dime of public money. I also agree with every point made by Senator TNF in terms of his changes to the bill.

Oh, I agree with them getting no public money. I disagree with banning tuition.

[MaxQue]

Keep in mind that in Finland, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited and all schools are well-funded.  The prohibition of tuition fees hasn't stopped schools in Finland from ranking highest in the world, let alone existing.

For private schools, I mean.

I totally believe than the public system can work without tuition.
But:
1. I do not want to give public money to a private school, since we don't manage it and can't control how they spend it. And, if we totally fund it, it's not really a private school anymore.
2. Private schools will go bankrupt if they aren't funded nor can charge tuition.

[MaxQue]

So I take it that no one's on board with giving every student the opportunity to attend any school they want, regardless if the school is public or private?  Because if we can't agree on something as basic as that, the bill is practically DOA, and I will scrap the entire thing without relinquishing sponsorship.

Well, that would force Catholic schools to accept the Muslims students and so on.
I agree with creating competition, but that's surely not by funding religious or for profit schools than we will attain that goal.

Anyways, what you propose would more or less nationalize pritave schools. The only difference between public and private under your bill is the owner of the school. Such changes would transform the structure of private schools in public ones and would lead to all schools being the same and defeat the goal of more competition.

[MaxQue]

I concur with Yankee. Currently, it's way too hard to get rid of incompetant teachers. They are a big problem in the system, yet, unions protect very much.

[MaxQue]

I concur with Yankee. Currently, it's way too hard to get rid of incompetant teachers. They are a big problem in the system, yet, unions protect very much.

Should not teachers have a guaranteed position, provided they are doing their jobs and not breaking the law after a certain amount of time?

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that, but if the unions are protecting incompetent teachers, don't you think that's a problem that should be addressed?

Are the unions protecting incompetent teachers?

Well, as Max said, unions are making it hard for schools to replace incompetent teachers.  That practice shouldn't continue.

Do you have any proof to back this accusation up?

http://blog.timesunion.com/schools/firing-bad-teachers-nearly-impossible/1459/

No quantifiable data, just anecdotes here. What percentage of bad teachers are kept on the job because of their union, Scott? Actually, I'd like to know what this bill defines as a 'bad teacher', because nowhere does it define what are the grounds by which a principal may fire a teacher, it just gives a principal the right to terminate a teacher without regard to due process. You mention an evaluation procedure, but why should teachers not have a say in how they are evaluated? Surely a teacher-created or even co-created evaluation process is far more fair than a process determined by some bean counter at the DoIA or a school principal.

I agree there must be a process to be sure the termination is deserved and the right choice.
But, yes, it's an issue. I had pretty big issues with an especially incompetent teacher and I was knowing well my principal (we knew each other from before her being a principal) and she said me than I wasn't the first, than they attempted to terminate her but the union did all to block it.

Oh, it's totally normal than unions do that. Union members are paying dues to be defended in those cases. If the union did nothing, it would be a bad union.

But terminaison must be avaliable if there is issues. Either quality-wise issues or behaviour-wise issues (which may be quite horrible, believe me, we had horror stories at my high school, like the Enhlish teacher teaching nothing, leaving on sick leave in April and letting the replacing teacher teach all the program in one month. He did that for years and the principal was unable to do anything, as he had too much seniority).

Sure, it's only isolated cases, but I saw too in my life to consider than it's only my schools which are unlucky.

[MaxQue]

The issue is funding. If we fund our schools appropriately, we will have educational improvement. We won't have improvements in education by attacking teachers; I'm surprised a fellow Laborite is making that fallacious claim.

Money will not solve magically all problems. It will solves many, but not all.
I'm not attacking teachers. I'm attacking incompetent people. Being Laborite and pro-union doesn't mean I'm support protecting incompetent people.

[MaxQue]

Nay

[MaxQue]

Nay. It's poorly written and there is bad ideas there. There is good ones, but there is bad ones.
I don't think it's our job to say how long recess and stydy halls must be long.

And honestly, I never got 2 hours for the total of both these things.

And "All schools [...]shall be required to be open [...] for no less than thirteen years." is clearly is misphrased mess. I suppose than kids should attend at least 13 years, but that's not what is is saying, it's saying than schools must be open during at least 13 years, which is more than wierd. And 5+13 gives 18, which is way too long. At 18, you should have been able to leave high school and entered a trades school or a vocationnal college, which is the appropriate track for some people.

The intentions are good, the result, not so much.

[MaxQue]

I have considerable issues with the original clause two. Particularly as it relates to the health care mandate it contains, which would naturally come into conflict with the requirements of Fritzcare, which theoretically would ensure they already are covered.

As for the lunch mandate, don't we already have that in place as it is? I am sort of confused about its purpose and most certainly what would be accomplished with the requirement. I am not aware of a school that doesn't provide lunch.

Many elementary schools don't.

[MaxQue]

I have considerable issues with the original clause two. Particularly as it relates to the health care mandate it contains, which would naturally come into conflict with the requirements of Fritzcare, which theoretically would ensure they already are covered.

As for the lunch mandate, don't we already have that in place as it is? I am sort of confused about its purpose and most certainly what would be accomplished with the requirement. I am not aware of a school that doesn't provide lunch.

Many elementary schools don't.

Cite?

I went to two.

[MaxQue]

I agree than standardized tests shouldn't be linked to funding, but couldn't they be used for higher education admission, instead of all those tests made by private organisations?

[MaxQue]

Why defining things in days? Shouldn't hours offer more flexibility?
I echo TJ comments.
I also oppose the striking down of the requirement of not being courses before 8AM. Beginning before 8AM is pure insanity for the parents.

[MaxQue]

What is the point of repealing The School Lunch Act?

the clause just above defines new criteria for the threshold under which lunches are free. Having two limits on the same thing in different laws isn't possible.

[MaxQue]

If we're tests but want to change them up a bit, how about getting rid of multiple choice sections? What's wrong with putting having them simply put the answer on a blank answer line? I can see scenarios where multiple choice makes some sense in the reading section where there have to be options, but why are there multiple choice math questions?

I would think the opposite. Multiple Choice for Maths and No-multiple choice for English.

Why would you ever want multiple choice math problems? You want people to have to actually solve them and come to the right answer, not plug in all the choices and get around actually solving the problem.

The reason why you would want them in English is questions like, "which of these words best completes the sentence?" where open-ended answers would turn grading into 50 shades of grey.

Why not moderation? A little bit of open-ended answers, a little bit of multiple choices.

Here, the standardized math test had three sections (in my time); multiple choices, short answers and long answers.

Multiple choice are usually short problems, which are testing the basic application of the course.
Short answers are short problems and you have to give the answer. They ask more thought than multiple choice. In both these, only the answer is worth points, so students hate them.
Long answers is long problems; they often mix different parts of the course, what is needed is not always obvious, answer is only 25% of points, the other 75% is on the reasoning and the differents calculation process on the sheet.

[MaxQue]

Sadly, Yankee, we'll need a new sponsor.

[MaxQue]

Nay

I have issues with 2a, 4 (such details should be dealt by collective bargaining) and the "replace at every 4 years" part of clause 2.

[MaxQue]

This bill says nothing of implementing new technologies to make bigger educational opportunities to rural school districts, doesn't address replacing textbooks with e-textbooks or any technology acquirement for school districts.

I have doubts than those technologies are really useful. Here, all classes must buy interactive boards. The boss of the company selling them is a bog donator of the party which was then in power. I don't see why we would waste money in tools whose utility isn't proved at all.

[MaxQue]

Aye

[MaxQue]

Aye

But I would like to limit testing in some way and possibly change the methods used so that we can get a better and more accurate read on the performance of the students, without causing them to dominate the curriculum focus and so forth.

Oh, sure they can be improved, but that shouldn't be decided by Senate. High ranking public servants at the Department of Education can do that better than us.

[MaxQue]

AYE.

This is needed for schools having an alternative programs catering to special needs, or which just have a different teaching philosophy. The important is the result, not the way they use.

190 days is excessive, through. Anyways, it should be defined in hours, not days.

[MaxQue]

I'm sorry for that, Yankee.

[MaxQue]

I think we need to make clear in this legislation as well whether or not Atlasian schools operate on a five day or four day week.

Why?

[MaxQue]

Aye