Armenia—Azerbaijan Conflict Aftermath: Discord in Armenia

[It’s so Joever]

The amount of hatred between these two countries is incredibly sad.

Azerbaijan won’t even allow individuals with Armenian ancestry to enter.

It’s very similar to the Balkans imo.
Lots of illogical ethnic strife that helps literally no one.
Unfortunately, I don’t see this hate dying out anytime soon.
The younger generation of Armenians for sure are just as hateful of the Azeris (yes even the people) from the conversations I have had. I don’t know any Azeris, but I would guess the trend is the same.

[It’s so Joever]

Useful reminder that there is a logical and relatively 'fair' solution to this long-term Question, of course.

Which is?

[It’s so Joever]

Useful reminder that there is a logical and relatively 'fair' solution to this long-term Question, of course.

Which is?

Armenia keeps Nagorno-Karabakh proper (the former Autonomous Oblast), but hands all other occupied territories back to Azerbaijan.

In my non-professional opinion, it’s highly doubtful that would last as a solution for very long.
Even if it makes sense from a non-biased standpoint, it simply won’t stop the long lasting hatred running in the region.
They will still find something bull**it to fight over, such as some land which “my great Armenian/Azeri ancestors lived in for centuries before the evil other side took it!”
Not to mention that the sizable minorities in some of these areas still will be a real problem in the future.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that it’s not just about the land. It’s far more abstract and any concrete “solution” offered by bystanders is only temporary.

Also I have my questions as to whether either side would really agree with such a solution without some force/negative incentive.

I’m still young so maybe I am completely wrong, but that’s just how I see it.

[It’s so Joever]

Armenian front lines in the South collapsing as I post this, Azeris captured Hadrut (large symbolic importance for Armenia) and Füzuli in the last couple of days and then took most of the Border to Iran and made vast gains in Hadrut Province, with little resistance. Azeri Sources claim they have reached the outskirts of the de facto capital of Karabakh Shusha/Shushi, however that is unable to be verified yet, but what is clear is that the Azeris have made very large gains in a very short period of time. The Situation is looking very bad for the Armenians at this stage. All Areas captured by the Azeri Armed Forces are ghost towns/completely deserted of the Armenian inhabitants, as the Armenians are evacuating everything. So effectively ethnic cleansing taking place in Europe, even if it is done out of fear/precaution and not by the Azeris directly. The mood in Azerbaijan is ecstatic over the last few days.

True, although Azeris have been fleeing from the area for years. Look at the changes in demographics over the few decades.
Both sides are ethnic cleansers by that definition.
It’s a shame neither side really wants to reach a logical negotiation.
And of course, Azeris cheering this insanity on is sickening, but not unexpected.

[It’s so Joever]

Geographically, it is best described as Asia. Politically and culturally, its a bit murkier.

This is why we should get rid of the idea of Europe’s as a continent.
Screw it, it’s just an extension of Asia.

[It’s so Joever]

Geographically, it is best described as Asia. Politically and culturally, its a bit murkier.

This is why we should get rid of the idea of Europe’s as a continent.
Screw it, it’s just an extension of Asia.

Lol... Peak 2020 woke opinion right there

I'm assuming that by "we",  you mean the US should declare Europe non-existent as a continent unilaterally. Can't say I'm surprised by the opinion.

Anyway, hope the right side, i.e. Armenians, manage to hold most of the former autonomous region in the end. Both sides hands are bloody, but Azerbaijan is more to blame for this.

Lol, imagine thinking there is a “right” side in this conflict.
Yes Nagorno-Karabakh proper is majority ethnically Armenian, but the total occupied region includes many Azeris as well. Plus, Azeris fled the land causing an massive change recently. Additionally, the land is legally Azerbaijani. That’s not a defense of the Azerbaijani belligerence this year, nor does it justify the current conflict, but to assume there is a right side is actually hilarious. It’s like thinking there is a right side in the Russia-Ukraine conflict (there isn’t by objective standards)
If you want your country to support Armenia for geopolitical reasons and are just trying to justify such by pretending there is a moral absolute here, go ahead.

Also yes, Europe is just an extension of Asia. And it’s not out of wokeness, there is definitely a solid argument to be made.

[It’s so Joever]

Geographically, it is best described as Asia. Politically and culturally, its a bit murkier.

This is why we should get rid of the idea of Europe’s as a continent.
Screw it, it’s just an extension of Asia.

Lol... Peak 2020 woke opinion right there

I'm assuming that by "we",  you mean the US should declare Europe non-existent as a continent unilaterally. Can't say I'm surprised by the opinion.

Anyway, hope the right side, i.e. Armenians, manage to hold most of the former autonomous region in the end. Both sides hands are bloody, but Azerbaijan is more to blame for this.

Lol, imagine thinking there is a “right” side in this conflict.
Yes Nagorno-Karabakh proper is majority ethnically Armenian, but the total occupied region includes many Azeris as well. Plus, Azeris fled the land causing an massive change recently. Additionally, the land is legally Azerbaijani. That’s not a defense of the Azerbaijani belligerence this year, nor does it justify the current conflict, but to assume there is a right side is actually hilarious. It’s like thinking there is a right side in the Russia-Ukraine conflict (there isn’t by objective standards)
If you want your country to support Armenia for geopolitical reasons and are just trying to justify such by pretending there is a moral absolute here, go ahead.

Also yes, Europe is just an extension of Asia. And it’s not out of wokeness, there is definitely a solid argument to be made.

Yeah, sure, if we don't consider any aspects other than modern geography.

Imagine saying yeah I'm going to the Parthenon, you know that temple in Greece. Oh really, where's that? Ya know, western Asia lol

Whether you like it or not, Europe is the birthplace of the majority of things, raging from political ideas such as democracy all the way to medicine, that shape the developed modern world we have today.

And ignoring every other cultural aspect and calling it Asia is just absurd.

But yeah, I don't imagine you would actually consider the opinions of actual people living on the continent before saying "we" should erase it out or existence.

And as I saud, both sides have bloody hands, but ones are bloodier than the other. And I specifically said I hope they keep the autonomous region, or in Russian and other Slavic languages, Oblast, that is and was majority Armenian by a wide margin, not all occupied areas.

America ran concentration camps for Japanese Americans, and is still on the right side or WW2 in a broad context.

Correction: Most advances in human history came from Eurasia.
As for you second point, could you explain why Armenia is objectively better in this circumstance when compared to Azerbaijan?
What is your reasoning?

[It’s so Joever]

Geographically, it is best described as Asia. Politically and culturally, its a bit murkier.

This is why we should get rid of the idea of Europe’s as a continent.
Screw it, it’s just an extension of Asia.

Lol... Peak 2020 woke opinion right there

I'm assuming that by "we",  you mean the US should declare Europe non-existent as a continent unilaterally. Can't say I'm surprised by the opinion.

Anyway, hope the right side, i.e. Armenians, manage to hold most of the former autonomous region in the end. Both sides hands are bloody, but Azerbaijan is more to blame for this.

Lol, imagine thinking there is a “right” side in this conflict.
Yes Nagorno-Karabakh proper is majority ethnically Armenian, but the total occupied region includes many Azeris as well. Plus, Azeris fled the land causing an massive change recently. Additionally, the land is legally Azerbaijani. That’s not a defense of the Azerbaijani belligerence this year, nor does it justify the current conflict, but to assume there is a right side is actually hilarious. It’s like thinking there is a right side in the Russia-Ukraine conflict (there isn’t by objective standards)
If you want your country to support Armenia for geopolitical reasons and are just trying to justify such by pretending there is a moral absolute here, go ahead.

Also yes, Europe is just an extension of Asia. And it’s not out of wokeness, there is definitely a solid argument to be made.

Yeah, sure, if we don't consider any aspects other than modern geography.

Imagine saying yeah I'm going to the Parthenon, you know that temple in Greece. Oh really, where's that? Ya know, western Asia lol

Whether you like it or not, Europe is the birthplace of the majority of things, raging from political ideas such as democracy all the way to medicine, that shape the developed modern world we have today.

And ignoring every other cultural aspect and calling it Asia is just absurd.

But yeah, I don't imagine you would actually consider the opinions of actual people living on the continent before saying "we" should erase it out or existence.

And as I saud, both sides have bloody hands, but ones are bloodier than the other. And I specifically said I hope they keep the autonomous region, or in Russian and other Slavic languages, Oblast, that is and was majority Armenian by a wide margin, not all occupied areas.

America ran concentration camps for Japanese Americans, and is still on the right side or WW2 in a broad context.

Correction: Most advances in human history came from Eurasia.
As for you second point, could you explain why Armenia is objectively better in this circumstance when compared to Azerbaijan?
What is your reasoning?

Well apart from the fact that Azerbaijan is a corrupt petrostate,

So?

it is obviously the agressor in this conflict.

Yes true. That’s why I think Azerbaijan is terrible here. That being said, one could easily argue that the conflict began when official Azerbaijani land was illegally occupied (and then one could argue before that etc)
But realistically, Azerbaijan started this and they are **sholes for doing so.

If you’re argument is that Azerbaijan is wrong for having initiated the conflict and that is somehow morally worse than the occupation of the land, that’s fine. That is a matter of personal philosophy.

Plus, considering Turkey already committed full blown genocide on the Armenians everyone should be weary of any party they support against them.

Dude...you’re Austrian.

Think two seconds about the standard you are setting.

[It’s so Joever]

Dude...you’re Austrian.

Think two seconds about the standard you are setting.

I'm a Serbian living in Austria, and since 2 of my great-grandparents were exterminated in Jasenovac, with another one spending the war in Germany in a work camp, I don't really follow your point.

Welp, good thing the Serbs never committed any genocides within the past few decades!

[It’s so Joever]

Dude...you’re Austrian.

Think two seconds about the standard you are setting.

I'm a Serbian living in Austria, and since 2 of my great-grandparents were exterminated in Jasenovac, with another one spending the war in Germany in a work camp, I don't really follow your point.

Welp, good thing the Serbs never committed any genocides within the past few decades!

Yeah, definitely a fair comparisson. 10,000 vs millions

Obviously one person is too much, but comparing Srebrenica to the Holocaust or the Armenian genocide makes me want to puke.

The intent was the same, Srebrenica was not the only massacre, and you damn well get the point by now.

[It’s so Joever]

Doesn’t Schiff’s district have a ton of Armenians?
If so, I would not be surprised by this at all, he gets the vote of an extremely jingoistic group that definitely cares about this issue far more than the average American. Makes sense politically.

As for the actual measure, yeah it’s ridiculous and hopefully will get nowhere. Azerbaijan was unjustified in starting this current conflict, but recognizing Artsakh is way too much right now and probably only will make things worse.
We should just continue to push for a compromise.

[It’s so Joever]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/10/31/armenia-azerbaijan-trade-fresh-accusations-of-karabakh-attacks

[It’s so Joever]

The fact is, Azerbaijan has always been a better nation for our own geopolitical interests. It’s shocking people are finally realizing this. The only reason many don’t see this is because of the Armenian-American lobbyists, who (rightfully so given this is their people who are being massacred) have been doing their best to push the public against this.

[It’s so Joever]

The fact is, Azerbaijan has always been a better nation for our own geopolitical interests. It’s shocking people are finally realizing this. The only reason many don’t see this is because of the Armenian-American lobbyists, who (rightfully so given this is their people who are being massacred) have been doing their best to push the public against this.

Since Azerbaijan is almost a proxy for Turkey at this point, there's also the little matter of the Armenian genocide, which said lobbyists have done a good job of keeping in the American public conscious. It must be unfortunate to tied in knots trying to act according to your interests while maintaining your claimed moral high ground, since the moral high ground decidedly belongs to the Armenians/Russians on that. Might it be better to have a foreign policy that basically says, let's keep out of each others' business and make money together?

Well…I wouldn’t really give that much of a high ground to Armenia considering their own cleansings of Azeris, both sides honestly were equally awful during the Nagorno Karabakh wars and I stand by that unless someone can correct me on if I’m wrong.
Armenia DOES have the moral high ground on the Genocide 100 years ago so I concede that.

Anyways why do YOU care? You of all people shouldn’t give a flying f**k about genocides seeing as you are a CCP shill.

[It’s so Joever]

The fact is, Azerbaijan has always been a better nation for our own geopolitical interests. It’s shocking people are finally realizing this. The only reason many don’t see this is because of the Armenian-American lobbyists, who (rightfully so given this is their people who are being massacred) have been doing their best to push the public against this.

But is that really the only thing that matters?

Absolutely not and if Azerbaijan does try and invade the rest of Nagorno Karabakh despite the agreement being pretty decent for them, I will gladly be morally against it.

[It’s so Joever]

The fact is, Azerbaijan has always been a better nation for our own geopolitical interests. It’s shocking people are finally realizing this. The only reason many don’t see this is because of the Armenian-American lobbyists, who (rightfully so given this is their people who are being massacred) have been doing their best to push the public against this.

Since Azerbaijan is almost a proxy for Turkey at this point, there's also the little matter of the Armenian genocide, which said lobbyists have done a good job of keeping in the American public conscious. It must be unfortunate to tied in knots trying to act according to your interests while maintaining your claimed moral high ground, since the moral high ground decidedly belongs to the Armenians/Russians on that. Might it be better to have a foreign policy that basically says, let's keep out of each others' business and make money together?

Well…I wouldn’t really give that much of a high ground to Armenia considering their own cleansings of Azeris, both sides honestly were equally awful during the Nagorno Karabakh wars and I stand by that unless someone can correct me on if I’m wrong.
Armenia DOES have the moral high ground on the Genocide 100 years ago so I concede that.

Anyways why do YOU care? You of all people shouldn’t give a flying f**k about genocides seeing as you are a CCP shill.

You advocated that the US should support Azerbaijan in this conflict, and I'm answering why the US would have a lot of trouble doing so. The Armenian lobbyists you mention are not making stuff up like you insinuate

I never insinuated that you lying f**k. Of course the Armenian genocide happened, but why should that influence our policy on Azerbaijan today when it happened 100 years ago when Azerbaijan didn’t exist?

, they're just reminding everyone of the Armenian genocide and then naturally public support shifts away from Turkey/Azerbaijan. As the memory of the genocide likely underpins and drives the current conflict this is not unjustified.

Ehhh, this really is above all else an ethnic conflict, and indeed the memory of the genocide plays a role, but that’s really not the full picture lmao. The truth is, both Armenia and Azerbaijan have been unreasonable in the Nagorno Karabakh wars and have sought land that should not be theirs. Both sides will deny this.

Why do I have an interest in this? We have our own beef with Turkey and so I'd probably rather see Armenia win, but we're not going to get involved since it has nothing to do with China's core interests. Works out better that way to result in a consistent policy that doesn't force one to contort into pretzels to maintain logical consistency.

You. Live. In. F**king. New. Jersey.

[It’s so Joever]

Of course the Armenian genocide happened, but why should that influence our policy on Azerbaijan today when it happened 100 years ago when Azerbaijan didn’t exist?

Nagorno Karabakh is surrounded, there is one road in and out. Part of that road around Shusha is controlled by Azerbaijan. If there is another war, there is a high chance that the entire Armenian population of Karabakh will be cut off and unable to escape. What happens to the Armenians living there if Azerbaijan defeats the Karabakh Armenian militia? Genocide is a very serious possibility.

The Armenian genocide happened 100 years ago, but there is still widespread denial, celebration of its perpetrators and strong anti-Armenian rhetoric. We are making a dangerous mistake if we think the Armenian genocide is something of the past that shouldn't affect our policies today.

Fair enough but again the smarter precedent still would be the ethnic cleansings in the 1990s as that was actually done by Azerbaijan, and I do think we should be very stern with Azeri leadership on potential consequences if they do invade Nagorno Karabakh proper and try to cleanse the local population.

[It’s so Joever]

I hope Cathcon is ok.

Wait I thought he was from Michigan?!

[It’s so Joever]

Can't believe I'm actually rooting for Iran to kick ass...

This, as many of you know I have generally been more sympathetic to the Azeris than most on here…but an invasion of the actual country of Armenia must not be tolerated.

[It’s so Joever]

So any minute now the West is going to apply sanctions on Azerbaijan...right?

Hopefully not.

[It’s so Joever]

Also funny how despite the likes of RedVelvet and Compucomp arguing Atlas only cares about invasions when it’s geopolitically expedient, nearly everyone here has strongly condemned and supported sanctions against Azerbaijan (except for me but I am an exception)

[It’s so Joever]

Also funny how despite the likes of RedVelvet and Compucomp arguing Atlas only cares about invasions when it’s geopolitically expedient, nearly everyone here has strongly condemned and supported sanctions against Azerbaijan (except for me but I am an exception)

Well, I will wait and see what the goal of the escalation is for Azerbaijan before I condemn them. If there goal is only to fully retake Nagorno-Karabakh, then I would support their right to use military force to reclaim their sovereign territory. However, if this is a war to conquer parts of Armenia's rightful territory, then that would've wrong and I would condemn the Azeris for it.

No just no. Nagorno Karabakh is ethnically Armenian and I shudder at what would happen if it fell under Baku. If Azeris get Nagorno, Armenians should get Nakchivan.