Until this AM ....

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If a man cries he's showing emotions and compassion.  If a woman cries she is being weak.

If a man tells an off-color joke he's being one of the guys.  If a woman tells an off-color joke she's a pig.

There has never been a female politician in American history who has ever delivered a speech which was considered a "great" speech.  Sure, we all tell ourselves that a woman can be President, but we're lying.

this is extremely true.  And Presidential Politics exponentially increases the issue.  People are looking for "leaders" when they vote for Prez.  Women are seen as "workers".  Hillary even sells herself that way.  It's not what people vote for though.  Sure, they'll elect a hard working woman with good ideas to congress, or even governor, but when it comes to Prez, they go with their gut - the need to be "presidential", "strong", but not come off as rude, arrogant, bitchy.  Men can be strong without being rude, bitchy, etc.  Women can't do it as easily.

I wouldn't go so far as to say a woman WON'T get elected in the next generation, but I agree that a woman will be in a difficult position to do so... and I think it will be MUCH easier for us to elect a Jew or a Black or a Hispanic than a woman.

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wakie's dead on here.  It's all subliminal.  I'm NOT a Clinton supporter at all.  partly because she can't win, but partly because she's not my personal favorite choice. That said, she's not a BAD choice.  She's certainly a better choice than Kerry who provoked little of the hatred that Hillary does.  Regardless, the whole thing is about feel, not about people opting not to vote for women.

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That said, she's not a BAD choice.

You may as well support Fred Thompson or John McCain if you really believe that.

that's ridiculous.

if you believe that, you obviously don't follow politics.

Hillary's negatives go beyond her being a woman, but her being a woman is a major cause of some of those negatives, and they are a hindrance to her overcoming those negatives.

W had a lot of the same negatives and the guy actually won (he's not really accomplished anything on his own - was handed a job as a do-nothing governor and annointed republican nomination with little fight) - the guy even got reelected despite his obvious incompetence... yet Hillary's too calculated, too political, too arrogant, too bitchy, too ugly, etc.  

And citing the 7 governors is a red herring.  That's 14%, first of all, a pretty sorry total, and again, Governors are NOT PResidents.  Getting a nomination is a different animal and the charisma required is nowhere near the same.  

You all need to realize the problem is NOT that people WON'T vote for a woman, it's that the standards they use to judge the candidates is not the same for women.  It's just a gut feeling.  People LIKE Obama.  They don't LIKE Hillary.  The likability for female politicians is definitely less than for males.  It just is.  We feel safer with men in leadership positions.  

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the funny thing is that nearly everyone arguing against wakie is doing so via the use of straw men.  They are putting up arguments that are not what wakie is arguing.  I doubt there's a single regular on this forum who isn't voting for hillary specifically because she's a woman.  Yet, I still believe it hurts her, even among forum regulars, maybe just a few, but still it has an impact indirectly.

And as many have said, one's gender cannot be separated from one's identity.  Hillary wouldn't be who she is if she were a man.  Trying to create a male hillary is silly.

The comments about selecting a "less qualified woman" over a " more qualified man" begin to show a hint of the issue because as we see with Obama, the word "qualified" is different depending on who's using it.

Yes, people do claim that Edwards is unqualified and Obama's unqualified, but it doesn't seem to stick with them nearly as well as it sticks with Hillary.  She's resented much more than Bush or Kennedy or others who have achieved what they have largely due to their accident of birth.  

I dunno.  I'm surprised that more around here can't even seem to try to understand wakie's point.  As if there's no such thing as sexism anymore in any way.  In fact it seems to be the consensus that there's not only no sexism, but women get some sort of favored treatment and tokenism, which clearly is beyond the pale.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.  

Go Obama!!