Egypt opens its border with Palestine, breaking the siege of Gaza

[danny]

I'm not sure if you knew this, but Gaddafi was "Israel's enemy", not the rebels now fighting against him (presumably that's what you're referring to; it's very difficult for me to follow whatever line of 'reason' you're using). Frankly, I think we could get a better deal selling a few tanks to the Palestinians to even up the score. I'm not saying we should, but it beats sticking our necks out for a country that only exists because of the United Nations.

I know I'm bumping something from a couple of pages ago but I was reading through this thread and I laughed when I got to this point because it's just so far from the truth. Israel exists because it won a war for its independence, not because of any UN resolution that isn't worth the paper it's written on.

[danny]

I'm not sure if you knew this, but Gaddafi was "Israel's enemy", not the rebels now fighting against him (presumably that's what you're referring to; it's very difficult for me to follow whatever line of 'reason' you're using). Frankly, I think we could get a better deal selling a few tanks to the Palestinians to even up the score. I'm not saying we should, but it beats sticking our necks out for a country that only exists because of the United Nations.

I know I'm bumping something from a couple of pages ago but I was reading through this thread and I laughed when I got to this point because it's just so far from the truth. Israel exists because it won a war for its independence, not because of any UN resolution that isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Without the Mandate, Britain would have stomped you flat, and there were elements in the British political establishment that were already inclined to do that even with it.

1)It was official British policy dating back to the Balfour declaration that Jews should get a country
2)The British were trying to stop the Jewish underground for years and didn't have much success in stomping anyone.

[danny]

and you might was well stop trying to shake me up, I'm shake proof.  

My dear jmfsct ) I am not trying to shake you up - I am just mightily amused ))

Though, of course, it is a useful point to make that from the Israeli standpoint you are a tribal enemy, but a useful fool at the same time. Just so that you understand Israelis better, when you encounter them.

I know, you don't care - you do this because of your Faith. Since I am a non-believer, I am quite ok w/ that, as you can imagine )))))) In fact, if anything, I prefer your godly selflessness to Israeli tribalism. But the way you go about this is still mightily amusing ))))

Most Israelis would certainly not consider jmfsct an enemy. Israel has enough real enemy's, an Israel supporting Christian isn't one of them.

[danny]

Sunday?  first, my girlfriend was observing the Jewish Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday....and I've never considered Sunday a Sabbath..

The capital crime is to celebrate anything that's like a Jewish Sabbath: very much like in the moderate gay marriage debate )) A gentile is not supposed to rest every 7 days. Though, there is an exception for those, who, without fully converting, renounce their false beliefs: if you renounce Jesus Christ, you still might avoid being stoned.

Though, of course, it has long been conceded that in the current sad circumstances the proper punishments can't be effected )))

Come on, no one really goes around advocating the death penalty for a religious crime anymore, much less a goy from a goy country which is just ludicrous and something that no one ever did.

[danny]

Come on, no one really goes around advocating the death penalty for a religious crime anymore, much less a goy from a goy country which is just ludicrous and something that no one ever did.

Ag isn't lying. While the punishments under Orthodox Judaism are obviously not meted out any longer, they remain on the books. And if civilization were to fall back to the Dark Ages, they'd probably come back into practice.

Of course as long as they don't change the bible the laws will remain on the books. But that's not very meaningful. What is meaningful is what people say should be done in practice  and how they act, people can interpret the books any way they like.

[danny]

are you saying the Jews would force nonJews to follow Judaism?  that was never the case throughout Israel's biblically recorded history.

Well, no. They simply purged the lands they conquered.

I'm saying that Orthodox Jews would probably resume executing other Orthodox Jews for religious sin.

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Which has nothing to do with constant international pressure on them. Nothing at all.

What international pressure? The international community likes to pressure Israel a lot, but never about Arab Israelis.

[danny]

What international pressure? The international community likes to pressure Israel a lot, but never about Arab Israelis.

And rightly so: Israel is (still?) a democracy within its own borders, with the due process available internally. As long as that remains the case, these things remain internal affairs of Israel.

Though, having said that, whatever I've heard about the life of Israeli Arabs makes this ex-Soviet Jew think they are the true Jews of Israel ))

Good, so you agree that Israel grants rights to Arabs because it's a democracy that grants rights to all its citizens because that is the kind of country it is and not because of any international pressure.

What about the life of Arab Israelis have you heard? because while I'm sure it isn't perfect, I don't think there is anything terrible about it.

[danny]

He is not, by any means, an enemy of Israel. He is merely an enemy of the Jews - that's not the same thing ))

danny, can you now see that you're not even the real target of this conversation?  rather it is I who is the target.

Regardless of who is the target, he said that most Israelis would view you as an enemy, I thought that wasn't true so I said so. Although I thought of it as an accusation that most Israelis think of non-Jews as enemy's.

[danny]

Good, so you agree that Israel grants rights to Arabs because it's a democracy that grants rights to all its citizens because that is the kind of country it is and not because of any international pressure.

No country, democratic or otherwise, European 'liberal' or Arabian 'socialist', simply 'grants' 'rights' from the goodness of its collective heart. Rights are fought for every day; they are won from the struggle for existence within society.

Israel doesn't grant rights at all. Israel likes to pump raw sewage into Palestinian settlements. Don't believe me? Watch the video.

Of course country's grant rights to people, they do it all the time. You seem to have this conspiratorial view that politicians or "people in power" all over the world are necessarily a group of evil people trying to keep the general population from obtaining rights and if people do get rights it's only because the politicians were somehow forced to.

Your second "argument" was just a way of changing the subject from the rights Arab Israelis have, to some case of something that happened in some settlement. If like you say "Israel doesn't grant rights at all" then Arabs wouldn't be allowed to vote or be elected, go to Universities express their opinion freely etc. but they are.

[danny]

Oh and Danny, Israel's real enemy is its own public opinion. If Israel isn't able to make major concessions and come to a durable form of peace with its neighbours, the place is headed for another Shoah the moment its neighbours grow too strong and the US grows too weak, which will happen at a certain point.

No, Israel's real enemy is people who want to get rid of it. If Israel isn't powerful enough to stop these enemy's that is what could cause another holocaust, and if that were the case then concessions and peace agreements would be useless, actually worse than useless as concessions  make those enemy's stronger.

[danny]

Your sources for Hamas being armed by the Egyptian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood?

The bible!!!

I wish people would stop taking jm seriously, he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

jmfcst actually did bring sources to back up his claims, and ones that have nothing to do with the bible.