Palestine college student protest megathread

[T'Chenka]

Such a shame that some students were bound and determined to turn a solemn and meaningful ceremony into a political rally for a cause they're very poorly informed about.  The university was not willing to endure such a sad, obnoxious spectacle and instead made the reasonable decision to cancel.  Now all their fellow students who just wanted to enjoy graduation -- especially after missing 2020 high school graduation because of COVID -- are robbed of it because of the selfishness of a few assholes who see the entire world as just a collection of platforms for them to jump up on and chant "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab free"

Are you allergic to acknowledging that there are a sizeable amount of non-problematic protestors that aren't racist and just don't like seeing grandmas and babies getting blown up by bombs or starving to death? It seems like you actively go out of your way to make sure that you don't acknowledge that they exist in your posts.

[T'Chenka]

Give it up for thread #17 about this.

Apparently, as of Wednesday, CNN online (website? youtube?) traffic for the USA Israel-Gaza college stuff is 10 to 15 times more than traffic for the story they surprisingly did about mass graves in Gaza.

[T'Chenka]

Are you allergic to acknowledging that there are a sizeable amount of non-problematic protestors that aren't racist and just don't like seeing grandmas and babies getting blown up by bombs or starving to death? It seems like you actively go out of your way to make sure that you don't acknowledge that they exist in your posts.

And what does this have to do with students an ocean away wanting to celebrate a monumental achievement? Are they not allowed to be joyous because someone somewhere is suffering?

I'm not advocating for this specific protest to happen at a graduation ceremony. I'm just defending these student protestors who are being painted as bigots with a broad brush, when in actuality, MANY of them are not bigots at all. Which is obvious to anybody with critical thinking skills.

[T'Chenka]

Yes, the average protester cannot be expected to distinguish between the two, and given how Jewish students are in fear for their personal safety (and in some cases, their very lives) around these Palestine protesters, to all intents and purposes we have to confront the reality that the word 'Zionist' is synonymous with 'Jew', and that there is no real difference between the two out in the real world, judging by the behavior of protesters.  So when you are condemning Zionism, you are condemning Judaism as a whole as well.  

There are A LOT of people who do not mean "jew" when they say "Zionist". Don't get it twisted. I do understand though that from the perspective of protecting one's safety, you have to kind of assume that somebody saying it means "jew". It's far better to be safe than sorry, and not assume a situation or person is safe when they are potentialy not. Even in 9 out of 10 you encounter people don't mean "jew" when they say "Zionist", the 10th person could mean that and could harm you.

[T'Chenka]

Let the non-problematic protesters leave the protesting ranks and condemn the lunatics as terrorist sympathizers.  You once called Tucker Carlson a Stochastic Terrorist.  If you want folks to stop watching Tucker Carlson online, is it too much to ask people to stop participating in demonstrations, the flow of which is determined by those who come the closest to being open terrorists in the US?

So then how are the non-racists supposed to protest what they consider to be very horrific stuff happening against human rights?

They... can't protest? In a free country?

[T'Chenka]

What they CAN'T do is threaten and intimidate Jewish students.  (They're doing that.)   What they can't do is block peaceful ingress and egress to persons going about their business or to and from their homes.  (They're doing that.)  What they can't do is shout down and forcibly bring to a halt other lawful public assemblies.  (They're doing that.)  What they can't do is profess allegiance to groups classified as terrorist organizations, such as Hamas.  (They're doing that.)

"They're" doing that... THEY are individuals who do not make up the majority of protestors. I specifically had stated "NON-racist protestors" and I'll add to that "the ones that AREN'T causing legitimate problems that go beyond protesting". Those innocent protestors have every right to protest in a functional democracy, and should not be blamed or targeted or labelled because of some a$$hole they've never met protesting in an inappropriate manner.

You believed that people didn't have the right to protest COVID-19 restrictions (although BLM and Antifa were fine to go out in the streets).  You believed that no one should ever even raise a word of protest as to the conduct of the 2020 election (which is not an endorsement of illegal J6 activities).

Physically protesting in a group with other protestors during the pandemic was dangerous and risky, not only to the protestors, but to every other innocent person those protestors were interacting with (grocery store worker, gas station worker, neighbours, roommates, etc etc). Outside of the "spread the virus and get people killed" aspect - which was very important and very relevant - I did not ever take issue with people's right to peacefully protest against COVID policies. That being said, the "spread the virus and get people killed" aspect was a big big deal, and due to this, yes, I had strong objections to those protests.

Yet you're fine with the Death to America crowd protesting as they are in a Free Country?.

From a legal standpoint, I'm fine with it. From a moral / cultural standpoint, I am not fine with it at all and have never claimed that I am. Do I want those students beaten and arrested? No. Do I think they are immoral? Yes.

Personally, I think you're like many here; you're only concerned with the rights of the people you politically agree with.

100% false. I'm not a Republican. My ideological beliefs and principles apply to everybody, whether they are like me or not like me. Whether I like them or dislike them. They don't flip-flop depending on the situation. I try to be as consistent as possible, and on the rare occasion where I cannot seem consistent, I have to soul-search and re-evaluate how I want to define my beliefs so that I can be consistent going forward. This is not a personality attribute I see in the majority of people that describe themselves as Republicans.

[T'Chenka]

Yet you raised no objection to BLM and Antifa doing exactly what you (not me, but you) assert would "get people killed".  Not a peep about BLM and Antifa "spreading the virus" from you.  Obviously, it's only blue Atlas Avatars that add to the contagion of COVID-19.

I'm coming with receipts, Fuzzy. All the evidence that you're lying is right here on this forum.

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=370528.msg7377833#msg7377833

There's a bunch more too.

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=375381.msg7373196#msg7373196
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=375381.msg7372770#msg7372770
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=375381.msg7372528#msg7372528
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=375381.msg7374684#msg7374684
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=375381.msg7374672#msg7374672
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=375381.msg7374654#msg7374654
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=375381.msg7374618#msg7374618
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=375381.msg7374591#msg7374591
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=375924.msg7378836#msg7378836

When digging for receipts, I also found this :

Protest, not riot.

It's a little too late for that, isn't it.

NO ONE at this point needs to "protest".  No one needs to go out so they can "have their voice heard".  That's because once there is a "peaceful protest", it is joined by people with baser motives (Antifa, ordinary thugs and criminals looking to loot).

Since you aren't a hypocrite, I'll be expecting to see you posting these sentiments in a year or two when there's a big reason for white conservatives to be out protesting.

Very interesting, considering how you've reacted to January 6th.

[T'Chenka]

"Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent."  So said Adam Smith over 2 centuries ago.  In the case of those affected by Pro-Palestinian violence, he's not wrong.

I do agree about those committing pro-Palestinian violence on college campuses. They are titantium HPs, for sure. I only support PEACEFUL protests. Adam Smith was also not wrong in regards to only Babbit being being shot and killed. Maybe if they had shown less mercy to the guilty and shot more of the traitors early on, the insurrection wouldn't have gotten as out of hand as it did.

[T'Chenka]

Your "receipts" are the sort of worthless "I condemn all violence!" statements that don't name the perpetrators.  Your reaction was ignored by BLM and Antifa because they were still getting moral support for their cause.

The right thing to have done was to have unambiguously withdrawn ALL support for organizations that CLEARLY had no desire to restrain rioters, to where the perpetrators of crime (BLM and Antifa) recognized that they were out there all alone.

Your "receipts" are an attempt to have it both ways during a time when what was needed was unequivocal condemnation for BLM and Antifa.  Sorry, but there's no virtue in your signal when you look at the entire picture.

I have never, not even once, supported the organization known as Black Lives Matter. As you should be well aware. You can conflate Monsour and her trained marxists with a social movement with the same name as many times as you want, but that doesn't magically make it true.

During the BLM protests, I only supported protestors (individual citizens) and possibly once or twice (I can't really remember) small to medium sized organizations that very strictly only engaged in and supported peaceful protesting. My main interest and focus was on the social movement and the individual citizens peacefully protesting. I didn't hitch my wagon to any organization as I wasn't really interested in doing something like that, and no organization charmed into becoming an ardent supporter.

Now, during this Israel Gaza stuff, I'm mostly the same. There isn't one particular organization that I'm supporting. I'm much more interested in supporting the social justice movement and supporting individual peaceful protestors and their right to protest and speak their messages.

[T'Chenka]

How many deplorables here will cheer and clap if the cops end up killing them?

[T'Chenka]

Commies: This is a modern day civil rights movement! Free 🍉🍉🍉!!!

Muh January 6th

What do protesting college students occupying school buildings have to do with an insurrection in Washington D.C. to suspend democracy and install a dictator?

[T'Chenka]

https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/1785436629655572647

Ugh, Jeet Heer. One of the more dishonest sophists on Twitter when it comes to Jews starting well before October 7. Yes, what's been happening on Columbia's campus is just "legitimate criticism of Israel" and let's ignore both some of the more colorful criticism and the impact such calm moves as (reads notes) occupying a building has on a university before finals and graduation.

Regardless of who Jeet Heer is, or how the protesters at Columbia specifically are behaving, that tweet is 100% accurate and relevant to the state of affairs in the USA right now. Nothing you said discredited the content of the actual tweet. People keep moving the conversation away from it, but the fact is, the American (and basically the entire western) establishment will defend Israel's war crimes and let the Palestinian bodies pile up and sleep soundly and comfortably at night.

Decent moral people who are paying attention are always going to oppose that.

[T'Chenka]

Ugh, Jeet Heer. One of the more dishonest sophists on Twitter when it comes to Jews starting well before October 7. Yes, what's been happening on Columbia's campus is just "legitimate criticism of Israel" and let's ignore both some of the more colorful criticism and the impact such calm moves as (reads notes) occupying a building has on a university before finals and graduation.

Regardless of who Jeet Heer is, or how the protesters at Columbia specifically are behaving, that tweet is 100% accurate

No, it’s just not, and asserting doesn’t make it so. Israeli absolutely should be subject to criticism but the people being arrested at buildings were the same ones releasing statements on October 7 expressing unwavering solidarity with Palestinian resistance and attributing 100% of blame for “unfolding violence” to Israel.

There are no people being arrested at a building(s) in the text or video of the tweet being quoted in the Heer tweet. The video shows an open campus with a police officer beating/slamming a Washington University St Louis professor. There is also mention of SIUE (is this a college or a department?) professor Steve Tamari. The Heer tweet mentions "professors and students" but makes no specific mention of people being arrested at buildings.

“Regardless of Jeet Heer is…” if I went to a UK thread with my Massachusetts avatar and started dropping Piers Morgan tweets to steer the conversation I can guess how well that would be received.

It doesn't matter if Marjorie Taylor Greene herself tweeted it. It's either accurate or not accurate. Regardless of whether the person tweeting it is trustworthy or a clown. A broken clown is right twice a day.

[T'Chenka]

Democrats should have never paid lip service to the pro Palestinian side.

Should they have said nothing when Israel dropped bombs on Palestinian women and children and blockaded food from entering Gaza and killed tens of thousands of Palestinians in what has been commonly described by many as an ethnic cleansing?

Why would that have been a better course of action?

[T'Chenka]

It doesn't matter if Marjorie Taylor Greene herself tweeted it. It's either accurate or not accurate. Regardless of whether the person tweeting it is trustworthy or a clown. A broken clown is right twice a day.

This is how we got people in the Israel/Gaza thread defending using Jake Shields tweets.

No, some people shouldn't be used to make any assertion that is to be believed.

If the person tweeting is providing information, then depending on who the person is, some people should not be trusted. I am in 100% agreement with you on that.

If the person tweeting is simply providing a take, and not offering any new information (or "information"), then the take itself can be judged on it's own merits, regardless of who the person providing the take is.

[T'Chenka]

If Jake Shields or Piers Morgan provides a “take”, it’s not just reasonable, it’s responsible to consider their perspective and framing and the history of their takes. That’s what separates a public personality from a rando.

Sometimes bad people have good takes. If you can't admit that, then there's no point engaging further with you on this topic.

[T'Chenka]

Should they have said nothing when Israel dropped bombs on Palestinian women and children and blockaded food from entering Gaza and killed tens of thousands of Palestinians in what has been commonly described by many as an ethnic cleansing?

Why would that have been a better course of action?

America’s internal unrest poses a much greater threat to the lives and civil liberties of people around the world than Benjamin Netanyahu.

... what? This is vague as hell and doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Netanyahu's government has killed tens of thousands of Palestinians in the last 7 months. How many people around the world has America's internal unrest killed in the last 7 months?

[T'Chenka]

Where's the condemnation from the press and politicians on the racism of the counter-protestors here?

You can't pull a "Look, the other side is bad too" if you don't actually condemn the hundreds of documented cases of antisemitism, mass property damage, assault, etc from the mobs.

I do, so I can easily say screw this racist frat boy too!

Most pro-Palestine users condemn anti-semetism and assault / violence, genius. It should go without saying. Claiming or implying that the majority of the supporters of the protests support that stuff is just a strawman used to make us look bad. If the anti-protestors side wants to win the battle of ideas, operating in good faith is a prerequisite.

[T'Chenka]

Most pro-Palestine users condemn anti-semetism and assault / violence, genius.

Proof? Or is this just something you “know” because you’re certain you’re the good guys?

This is a civil rights protest for Palestinian civilians. "Divest from Israel" (so that you aren't supporting harm being done by Israel to Palestinian civilians).

I'm not the one making the bold claim. It's a civil rights protest by left wing college students. A normal thing done by left wing college students in USA history. YOU are the one making the bold claim that the majority of these protestors are racists. Since YOU are the one making the bold claim, the burden is on YOU to provide evidence and reasoning for your bold claim.

"There's been a racist here and a racist there at these protests in the media" is not enough to make your claim the "neutral / presumptive" claim and my claim the bold claim. Not even close. "A very large amount of left wing USA college kids are racists" has never been a widely held common belief (EDIT - in the post-civil rights movement world, I meant).

[T'Chenka]

It's not the proper response and this individual is clearly wrong.  And I'll even go further and say that Tate Reeves should have had the good sense not to cheer this on.  But it pales in comparison to the harm and damage the pro-Palestinian posters have done.  The scope of this behavior in response to the protests pales in comparison to the threatening, harassment, and violence toward Jewish students in multiple states across the nation, and, even in other countries.  It pales in comparison to the overall display of hatred the pro-Palestinians have displayed, not just for the IDF and Bibi, but for Jews (including the Jews in their midst) and for America and Americans.  

The pro-Palestinian protests have been VIOLENT protests.  As they are protests that have been infiltrated by actual terrorists (people are not denying that they are Hamas), they have systematically terrorized Jewish students.

There are CLEARLY bad actors on both sides here (the protestors and counter-protestors). This isn't debatable. The evidence that this is true is overwhelming and well-documented.

However, to claim that the amount of hatred and violence being done by pro-Palestinian protestors is way more than the other side, and to imply that a significant amount of a majority of the protestors are violent or hateful, is a claim that intelligent people should not take at face value without it being properly demonstrated with FERL (facts evidence reasoning logic). Where's the FERL?

[T'Chenka]

That's a falsehood.  I won't say you're lying, because you have actually talked yourself into believing it.

Your side in this matter deserves the bad look you get.

I can demonstrate why I believe what I believe, with facts evidence reason logic. I'm also open-minded to modifying or changing my position if shown new facts evidence reason logic.

Your entire argument seems to be "people that disagree with me are wrong".

If you're confident that you're right, you should lay out your case instead of just making unsupported claims. The problem with this approach is, once you've shown your cards, it's possible that your position can be shown by others to be demonstrably incorrect. But hey, if you just keep making unsupported claims and never explain your positions in detail, you never have to be wrong!

[T'Chenka]

The ratio of pro-Palestinian bad actors to opposition to bad actors is 99-1.

I don't think you live in the real world, Fuzzy. Based on your posts, you don't seem interested in discovering what the actual truth is, as demonstrated by evidence or logic. You seem way more interested in what your gut or your right wing propaganda tells you. My reason for believing this is your propensity to make outrageous claims and then refuse to demonstrate why they're true. This is your right in a free country, but it is other peoples' right to point and laugh at you when you spout this nonsense.

[T'Chenka]

I've demonstrated that they're true.  You would not admit the obvious. 

No, you absolutely have not. You generally avoid explaining the finer details of your positions, and when you do engage in debates, the result is usually you resorting to whataboutism, or you being proven wrong and either disappearing or refusing to engage further.

I've been alive longer than you and I've NEVER seen the Palestinians willing to be reasonable.  Each and every faction of Arab Palestinians are Arab Nationalists and (to varying degrees) Islamic Jihadists.  If this is up for debate, you haven't been paying attention. 

You're talking about the governments of Palestine. I do not like or respect or defend those governments. My support is for the civilians and their civil rights. As I have stated multiple times.

Public support for "Palestine" depends on creating new narratives of how the "Palestinians" have been displaced, etc.  Yet no Arab state has opened their doors to them.  Why is that?  They are making an "indigenous" claim to "Palestine", but the Jews have a far more valid "indigenous" claim (if we're going that route).  And there's a bottom line here.  The bottom line is that if Hamas surrenders and disarms, there will be peace, but if Israel surrenders and disarms, it will be crushed.  I see no reason not to believe that you secretly wish for the latter outcome, and you're not alone on this forum, sad to say.

I support peace, non-violence, and (theoretically) either a two-state solution or a one-state secular solution. I do not secretly wish for any sort of violence in any country on the planet. I have also never called for Israel to disarm.

[T'Chenka]

I can’t even…
https://x.com/gsdeutch/status/1786179085812552115?s=46

If they don't have the ability to shower, then I won't lie, the demand for dental dams is... surprising.

[T'Chenka]

The Palestinians are the bad guys in the Israel/Palestine conflict.

This is not racist, and it is a widely held opinion.  This is no different than saying the Russians are the bad guys in the Russia/Ukraine conflict or that the Americans were good and Germans were bad in WW2.

Palestinian citizens are not Hamas, and Israel has killed over 35 thousand civilians, many of which are children.

Hamas and Israel are the "bad guys". Innocent civilians (in both Palestine and Israel) mostly are not.

If your opinion was as widely held as you claim, Biden wouldn't be taking so much heat for treating Israel with kid gloves.