OK, now no question, I'd vote for Hillary in the general, no reservations

[Person Man]

I have thought about and McCain would simply finish what Bush has done. McCain is the neo-con that Bush became.

[Person Man]

Yes, but then we will never leave Iraq. If he wins, regardless of what I do, I am going to stop questioning our involvement in Iraq. At that point, Iraq and Us will be like star-crossed lovers.

[Person Man]

barring a massive change in worldview on my own part, I can't envision supporting the Democratic nominee in November.  Clinton or otherwise.  although she more obviously represents the worst of the political system than does Obama...

look BRTD...  McCain's a dick.  not a difficult conclusion.  he's an opportunistic egomaniac, but they all are...  I challenge you to find the sliver of policy difference as president between McCain and Clinton.  one wants to be in Iraq for 50 years, the other for 100...  one wants to raise the SS earnings cap, one doesn't...  both want to run the healthcare industry through corporate thugs (except Hillary's probably more corporatist and fascistic about it, reading their platforms, not that it matters)...

stop choosing between evils.  the day you do that is the day you will be free.  if we had done this in 1968, maybe it would have mattered.  it'd be a late start, I know.  but I really hope every goddamn Obama voter, and every black, sits on his ass on November fourth and lets McCain win 42 states...  that's the only way to teach the Democratic Party to care about US...

or maybe I'm a dreamer...  keep embracing your hacks...

We've been trying that for 40 years.... Look at us now. We will be in a REAL dystopia long before your strategy bears fruit.

[Person Man]

at this point, we have to think about how are going to soft-land this abomination that has sucked the soul out of our country. Let it run its course? ...and how would that end?

[Person Man]

barring a massive change in worldview on my own part, I can't envision supporting the Democratic nominee in November.  Clinton or otherwise.  although she more obviously represents the worst of the political system than does Obama...

look BRTD...  McCain's a dick.  not a difficult conclusion.  he's an opportunistic egomaniac, but they all are...  I challenge you to find the sliver of policy difference as president between McCain and Clinton.  one wants to be in Iraq for 50 years, the other for 100...  one wants to raise the SS earnings cap, one doesn't...  both want to run the healthcare industry through corporate thugs (except Hillary's probably more corporatist and fascistic about it, reading their platforms, not that it matters)...

stop choosing between evils.  the day you do that is the day you will be free.  if we had done this in 1968, maybe it would have mattered.  it'd be a late start, I know.  but I really hope every goddamn Obama voter, and every black, sits on his ass on November fourth and lets McCain win 42 states...  that's the only way to teach the Democratic Party to care about US...

or maybe I'm a dreamer...  keep embracing your hacks...

We've been trying that for 40 years.... Look at us now. We will be in a REAL dystopia long before your strategy bears fruit.

No kidding. Letting Reagan and W both win was really good for us in the long run, right?

Well maybe W was politically, although that will probably only be fleeting at best if we can't come up with a true positive agenda.

how different would our lives be with Presidents Mondale and Kerry and Gore?

Don't forget Dukakis....mayber things would have been better. We will never know that. All we know is that we have had a bad time and we had like half a dozen chances to find a new place for ourselves. This is probably what is causing America to enter its malaise and long-drawn-out-suicide. People are not willing to invest in the future. People are in their comfort zone and don't want change, even if it is neccesairy. I guess they will have to go cold turkey on the comfort zone before they can head out for greener pastures.

Every single election there are people who are Democrats or lean liberal who gripe and complain and say it's better if the Democrats lose. They are waiting for ... what? The fact is the Democratic party is far too diverse, ideologically, to satisfy everyone, and left-leaners are far too independent to fit together in an organized party.
But hey, at least not voting is better than going out and becoming a domestic terrorist like the SLA. Sure don't vote, but put the gun down. Maybe that's all we can expect from the left.
The lockstep forced march of the right may not make for good or compassionate government but it certainly makes for good organization and discipline.

...until we have nothing to lose. People simply have too much to lose for the children to have a brighter future. That's probably why people complain about the man and yet suck his right nut...too much to lose.

[Person Man]

barring a massive change in worldview on my own part, I can't envision supporting the Democratic nominee in November.  Clinton or otherwise.  although she more obviously represents the worst of the political system than does Obama...

look BRTD...  McCain's a dick.  not a difficult conclusion.  he's an opportunistic egomaniac, but they all are...  I challenge you to find the sliver of policy difference as president between McCain and Clinton.  one wants to be in Iraq for 50 years, the other for 100...  one wants to raise the SS earnings cap, one doesn't...  both want to run the healthcare industry through corporate thugs (except Hillary's probably more corporatist and fascistic about it, reading their platforms, not that it matters)...

stop choosing between evils.  the day you do that is the day you will be free.  if we had done this in 1968, maybe it would have mattered.  it'd be a late start, I know.  but I really hope every goddamn Obama voter, and every black, sits on his ass on November fourth and lets McCain win 42 states...  that's the only way to teach the Democratic Party to care about US...

or maybe I'm a dreamer...  keep embracing your hacks...

We've been trying that for 40 years.... Look at us now. We will be in a REAL dystopia long before your strategy bears fruit.

No kidding. Letting Reagan and W both win was really good for us in the long run, right?

Well maybe W was politically, although that will probably only be fleeting at best if we can't come up with a true positive agenda.

how different would our lives be with Presidents Mondale and Kerry and Gore?

Much better in my opinion. But obviously we need candidates who can actually win, too (and the Clintons, bad as they are in many ways, are still far better than the Republicans). It's just disappointing that when we get a progressive who can win in Obama, we seem intent on denying him the nomination.

I said "how"

You mean, how would our lives be different?

1-We wouldn't be freaking out about losing our doctors
2-We wouldn't be building a multi-trillion dollar empire with money that could help us get a doctor
3-We wouldn't have these horrible culture wars
4-Industrial relations would be better, and people would feel happy at their jobs and make more money for their bosses, even with slightly higher taxes.
5-Race relations would be better
6- 9/11 may never have happened

[Person Man]

Well, my wife doesn't have health insurance right now, either and she's falling apart due to depression.

...and yeah, not just abortion is at stake. The court is coming closer everyday to overturning WestCoast and Brown. Soon, there could be no minimium wage or minority rights.

[Person Man]

Soon, there could be no minimium wage or minority rights.

The drama.

...and how are you not an arch-conservative?

[Person Man]

McCain is a disgusting murderous THUG. He's endorsed by the king of such people, Joe Lieberman. Simply being supported by this disgusting piece of human sh!t alone is enough. At this point, my burning hatred of McCain has reached greater than Bush, and possibly greater than anyone except Ralph Nader. I'd vote for Norm Coleman over McCain. I'd vote for Michele Bachmann over McCain. I'd vote for TOM COBURN over McCain.

F**K MCCAIN.

What is wrong with you?

John McCain is an American patriot.  He is a good and decent man.

I won't vote for him because, plainly put, he's too conservative for me. 

But this guy was imprisoned and tortured for almost six years.  All the bones in his arms were broken.  He was brutalized in unthinkable ways.  And whether you think the Vietnam War was just, or unjust as I believe it was, so what?  The man served with honor and courage.

He didn't use his Daddy to dodge the draft. 
He didn't hide in some state national guard unit, with friends in high places keeping him safe.
He didn't run to Canada or run around Europe.

He served.  With people like John Kerry and Tom Ridge and Max Cleland and yes, Duke Cunningham.

Say you hate McCain's policies.
Say you find the man arrogant or politically spineless.  (Though I don't think so.)
Say you think he's too old or too stubborn about Iraq.

There are a million reasons to oppose John McCain.  But don't you dare suggest he is a murderous thug. 

Man, I am just gobsmacked by your post -- totally shocked.  And I hope it was a joke.

Well said.

Yes. He went a bit far....but on every issue, besides guns maybe, Clinton is at least somewhat better than McCain and that's enough for me.

[Person Man]

I am also concerned about John McCain. There's JM1.0 from 2000, JM2.0 from 2007 and JM3.0 from 2008. Straight Talk, my ass!   Also, he ignores the big issues, on health care, he just wants to give everyone a $5000 dollar welfare check. He's about hand outs, not hand ups. Hillary is the person I feel will give me a hand up, despite the fact she gives SOME hand outs. I kind of respect Huckabee for being a good christian and being concerned about hand outs that are not hand ups.

[Person Man]

Not me.  I'm done w/ them.  The way they (especially Bill) has manipulated Barack's words throughout this campaign has completely turned me off to them.

The fact that the Clintons can try to suggest with a straight face that Obama is a Reaganite should cause any level-headed Democrat to scorn them.  Barack Obama, arch conservative! Who believes this crap?

Well, Obama should just say that tactics are different from ideology and that he can deliver an ass whoopin with those tactics.

[Person Man]

Soon, there could be no minimium wage or minority rights.

The drama.

...and how are you not an arch-conservative?

Uh, how does that prove that I am an arch conservative? I'm saying it's dramatic to think that those things would happen.

They could... Hopefully, the democratic congress will grow nutz.

Why judicial nominations matter: The Clean Air and Water Acts could be weakened. The Endangered Species Act could be overturned. Gun control laws could be overturned. Workplace protections of women and minorities will be further weakened.  Much of the precedent from the Warren Court is at stake. SCOTUS does matter.

None of that will happen.  Sorry.

Actually, it's already happening.

Just look at these recent cases decided by the Roberts Court:
Rapanos v. United States
Carabell v. Army Corps of Engineers
Rancho Viejo v. Norton.
National Association of Home Builders et al. V. Defenders of Wildlife et al.

Yeah...and replacing Ginny and Stevens with Luttig and an another federalist could cause some problens.

[Person Man]

Do you think this loss of voting interest has created a state with less accountability?

[Person Man]

I don't see how, besides psychologically, being a part of something and doing your "civic duty" and all that.  but if you have some concrete example of how it does work for them, outside of their backstage passes at the national conventions and whatnot, I'd love to hear it.

It gives them power and influence, or at least the illusion/possibility of power and influence. And American politics being what it is, there's always the possibility of very real, if technically illegal, financial benefits. You forget that the Democratic and Republican parties are, to a great extent, effectively branches of the State rather than being political parties in a normal sense.

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What you don't appear to understand, I don't understand why you don't understand, is that there is no reason for the political establishment to worry about low turnouts. Turnout in mid-term elections, which unlike most other countries matter a hell of a lot in the U.S, is comical (or tragic; depends on your perspective) and has been for years.

Apathy is not a Revolutionary stance.