American Secession

[R.P. McM]

I really don't think anyone advocating this has contemplated the massive, disruptive population migrations that would likely follow any sort of secession. This isn't like the 1860s when there was a clear regional divide splitting the country along easy-to-define lines, in America now you have dense, liberal urban cores surrounded by far right rural areas in nearly every state. How do you divide that into different countries in a way that doesn't cause chaos?

I think it's a given that at the point at which such a proposal becomes a realistic possibility, the nation is already mired in massive chaos. Which doesn't seem like a particularly far-fetched prospect, given the current trajectory.

[R.P. McM]

No way in hell, and people advocating for this because they don't want to share a country with cringe leftoids and/or MAGA deplorables have no historical perspective and no sense of responsibility for their countrymen. (normal, sane, patriot)

Yeah, "cringe leftoids" want the U.S. to be more like Canada, and "MAGA deplorables" want a fascist dictatorship. Which one of those things is actually a serious concern?

And at what point does one cease to be one of my fellow "countrymen?" Are they allowed to betray me to foreign interests, and attempt to subvert a democratic election in favor of authoritarian minority rule? Not in my book — they've crossed a red line, I can no longer trust them, and I owe them nothing in the form of patriotic/political allegiance.

[R.P. McM]

No way in hell, and people advocating for this because they don't want to share a country with cringe leftoids and/or MAGA deplorables have no historical perspective and no sense of responsibility for their countrymen. (normal, sane, patriot)

It would be a disaster for the U.S., and, in spite of what some very stupid people believe, a disaster for the rest of the world as well.

What's more disastrous for the rest of the world? Choose one:

A.) A Trumpist authoritarian state that commands the resources of the entire U.S.

B.) A Trumpist authoritarian state that commands the resources of Red America, but is stalwartly opposed by a significantly more populous and powerful Blue State bloc.

[R.P. McM]

No way in hell, and people advocating for this because they don't want to share a country with cringe leftoids and/or MAGA deplorables have no historical perspective and no sense of responsibility for their countrymen. (normal, sane, patriot)

It would be a disaster for the U.S., and, in spite of what some very stupid people believe, a disaster for the rest of the world as well.

What's more disastrous for the rest of the world? Choose one:

A.) A Trumpist authoritarian state that commands the resources of the entire U.S.

B.) A Trumpist authoritarian state that commands the resources of Red America, but is stalwartly opposed by a significantly more populous and powerful Blue State bloc.

C.) Both options lead to the triumph of oligarchic authoritarianism. In A, the U.S. aligns with Russia and/or China and holy crap it’s Nineteen Eighty-Four, oligarchic variant, maybe with less interstate conflict (but I wouldn’t bet on it). In B, the U.S. is consumed by its own internal conflict and nothing stands in the way of Russian/Chinese/+ more oligarchic authoritarianism sweeping the globe - the + is because in such a world I see several current democracies either converting to authoritarianism a la say what Tanzania did with Chinese support or say what Mali is in the process of doing with Russian support or what future India might do with or without outside support; or being subverted by outside authoritarian actors like what is happening in Georgia or has happened in Venezuela or might happen in Ukraine; or any combination thereof.

Nothing gets better if you’re not an elite.

No, no they don't. Because China and the second-rate power that is modern Russia, which hasn't been closely aligned with China since the 1970's, doesn't constitute a hegemonic threat against Western Europe + Japan/Korea + Blue America/Canada/Australia. Whereas Red America represents the very authoritarian threat you fear elsewhere in the world. They already elected to the presidency a lawless, racist, sexual predator, and attempted to subvert a democratic election in order to preserve his catastrophic tenure. What more evidence do you need, short of a successful coup and a fascist thug with his boot on your neck?

I genuinely think you're going to need that boot on your neck, but the good news is, by that point, I'll be long gone. Let the centrists/corporatists/accommodationists pay for their disastrous judgement; no one who's been sounding the alarm should suffer any ill consequences.

You want option C.), but there is no option C.), because Republicans aren't about to start respecting norms, the legitimacy of their domestic political opponents, or the results of a democratic election they happened to lose. Nothing suggests they've learned any lessons from the Trump era, and you're massively delusional if you believe otherwise.