Mass Catholic pedophilia in Ireland

[Tetro Kornbluth]

This is/was not news. It was just officially conforming what was already known. Memphis is correct.

The second thing which no-one seems to be pointing out is to what extent clergy were being defended by religious orders and the catholic church (as well as the ordinary people too, let's not deny it) who knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it. Seriously Jesus Christ people, it was not just paedophilia but also effective child slavery as well which was aimed, abetted and ignored by the institution and not just the clergy in question, and no this is not an exaggeration.. I'm quite happy to bring up the revelant quotes in the report if anyone wishes to read them.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

. Seriously Jesus Christ people, it was not just paedophilia but also effective child slavery as well which was aimed, abetted and ignored by the institution and not just the clergy in question, and no this is not an exaggeration..

...

Who denied any of that?

Anyone who is trying to blame this mess on "just a few bad priests".

[Tetro Kornbluth]

. Seriously Jesus Christ people, it was not just paedophilia but also effective child slavery as well which was aimed, abetted and ignored by the institution and not just the clergy in question, and no this is not an exaggeration..

...

Who denied any of that?

Anyone who is trying to blame this mess on "just a few bad priests".

No one denied that there was a cover up by the institution. We said "just a few bad priests" in regards to whose actually a pedophile.

Yes, okay then. But also this is not just a sexual scandal, it is a scandal of abuse of poor, often abadoned or illegitimate children (there is a whole class element to this as well; most of the abusers would have been middle class, well educated, of impeccable social standing, etc) by an instutionalized system aided and abetted by the Catholic Church and the Irish State and People. This was a system where violent beatings and "cruel and unusual punishment" were fairly regular, and was completely and utterly ignored. This was a system where at Goldenbridge children (young pre-adolescent children) were forced to make 60 rosaries a day on pain of severe beatings by nuns for a commercial company; The Sisters of Mercy (the order in question) pocketed the money to buy a holiday home for its members. This was an instutional problem, lay with a variety of powerful bodies, yes only a minority were paedophiles but a huge number of people knew what was going on.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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I don't deny this. Where did I say that?

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Wrong. Utterly Wrong. A large part of the Catholic establishment, hell, even ordinary people knew what was going on and ignored it/passed it by/etc. Many offenders were only moved to different parishes. I'm not basing this on actual conspiracy, I basing this well known facts on these cases. The Whole Catholic Church and religious orders in Ireland were responsible in one or other. No one dared to come forward.

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If you include those who shielded their eyes then you are talking a large number of clergy, especially in orders like the Christian Brothers, Sisters of Mercy, etc...

[Tetro Kornbluth]

While the acts of the individual priests are disgusting, I must say this kinda thing goes on in any institution where adults have access to children even in public schools.  The Church as a whole is not at fault here.  I mean look at all the recent allegations of female teachers boinking male HS students.  Some of them are hot btw.  Do you blame the whole public school system here?  I don't think so.  However, I don't like the fact that there were a lot of cover-ups and simple transfers of priests within parts of the Catholic Church and I also think priests should be allowed to marry.

Completely and utterly uncomparable situation.

And your signature is as dumb as hell.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

While the acts of the individual priests are disgusting, I must say this kinda thing goes on in any institution where adults have access to children even in public schools.  The Church as a whole is not at fault here.  I mean look at all the recent allegations of female teachers boinking male HS students.  Some of them are hot btw.  Do you blame the whole public school system here?  I don't think so.  However, I don't like the fact that there were a lot of cover-ups and simple transfers of priests within parts of the Catholic Church and I also think priests should be allowed to marry.

Completely and utterly uncomparable situation.

And your signature is as dumb as hell.

Thanks for your input.

Say can you do contribute to this in any other way but attack me?  I'd appreciate it buddy.

Okay then, the comparsion between affairs between second level teachers and their pupils is completely inadequate because the cases you are referring to had a strong consensual dimension (regardless of whether you think a 14 year old can 'consent' or not) while most of the abuse victims in this report were orphans, petty criminals, the abandoned and just happened to be poor and many were pre-adolescent. I have already outlined in my other posts that this was not just sexual abuse and the focus on paedophilia alone actually diminishes what took place in some of these institutions.

Also as the public school - Catholic Church thing, the first point to note here is that we are really talking about religious orders such as the Christian Brothers, the Sisters of Mercy and others who ran these institutions which got backing from the church hierarchy. This led a great deal of covering up of what actually took place, after all this report refers to things which go back as far as the 1920s (I think; possibly early) went onto as late in some places as the 1990s and yet no persecution ever took place during those long decades. Similiarily the report did not name or intends to prosecute any of the offenders who committed this abuse, even though many are still alive. All those media scandals you refer to were usually due to media trials; which shows the desire the prosecute. The real story is not that abuse took place, as that is and was always common knowledge, but the scale of it and how little people actually cared, that includes the state and the department of Education and of course the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy which colluded/ignored all that was taking place (the worst was the occasional moving of priests to different parishes, but that did not take place so much in these industrial schools, which is what the focus of the report is).

Next month another report will be out on Child abuse by RCC, this time focusing not the industrial education system but the maneovures the Dublin Diocese relating to suspected child abusers over a similiarily long period of time. This will include alot of much major figures, including former Archbishops of Dublin, than the Ryan Report did. Except more revelations.

Also a united Ireland is not a good idea. Happy?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

While the acts of the individual priests are disgusting, I must say this kinda thing goes on in any institution where adults have access to children even in public schools.  The Church as a whole is not at fault here.  I mean look at all the recent allegations of female teachers boinking male HS students.  Some of them are hot btw.  Do you blame the whole public school system here?  I don't think so.  However, I don't like the fact that there were a lot of cover-ups and simple transfers of priests within parts of the Catholic Church and I also think priests should be allowed to marry.

Completely and utterly uncomparable situation.

And your signature is as dumb as hell.

Thanks for your input.

Say can you do contribute to this in any other way but attack me?  I'd appreciate it buddy.

Okay then, the comparsion between affairs between second level teachers and their pupils is completely inadequate because the cases you are referring to had a strong consensual dimension (regardless of whether you think a 14 year old can 'consent' or not) while most of the abuse victims in this report were orphans, petty criminals, the abandoned and just happened to be poor and many were pre-adolescent. I have already outlined in my other posts that this was not just sexual abuse and the focus on paedophilia alone actually diminishes what took place in some of these institutions.

Also as the public school - Catholic Church thing, the first point to note here is that we are really talking about religious orders such as the Christian Brothers, the Sisters of Mercy and others who ran these institutions which got backing from the church hierarchy. This led a great deal of covering up of what actually took place, after all this report refers to things which go back as far as the 1920s (I think; possibly early) went onto as late in some places as the 1990s and yet no persecution ever took place during those long decades. Similiarily the report did not name or intends to prosecute any of the offenders who committed this abuse, even though many are still alive. All those media scandals you refer to were usually due to media trials; which shows the desire the prosecute. The real story is not that abuse took place, as that is and was always common knowledge, but the scale of it and how little people actually cared, that includes the state and the department of Education and of course the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy which colluded/ignored all that was taking place (the worst was the occasional moving of priests to different parishes, but that did not take place so much in these industrial schools, which is what the focus of the report is).

Next month another report will be out on Child abuse by RCC, this time focusing not the industrial education system but the maneovures the Dublin Diocese relating to suspected child abusers over a similiarily long period of time. This will include alot of much major figures, including former Archbishops of Dublin, than the Ryan Report did. Except more revelations.

Also a united Ireland is not a good idea. Happy?

I understand your point about the consensual and nonconsensual dimension of this.  I was just saying pedophilia whether forced or not happens at all levels.  And yes, the Church hierarchy did try to cover it up even here in the States.  There were even cover-ups in public school cases as well.  Both were wrong, but not on the level of the Catholic Church.  Regardless of the case, you have to look where a systems of better controls needs to take place.  And the slave labor for a nice vacation house  for the nuns is just deplorable.   

Well you are essentially right and wrong here. Right in theory, but in practice wrong. As I keep banging on about is that lots of people knew what was going on, knew it was wrong and did nothing for a variety of sociological and personal reasons. If I'm allowed to make an intellectual fallacy I usually bang about (reification) then I would say it was the fault of society, not the Roman Catholic Church itself. The only reason this report exists is because the church is discredited, the reason the church is discredited is in large part due to the abuse scandals of the 1990s and the only reason the abuse scandals are so well publicized nowadays was because in the early 1990s newspapers and television journalists were no longer as afraid as before of stepping on the church's toes, which shows that it was already weakening socially and the reason it was weakening socially.... well, very difficult to say, really due to these complex sociocultural perhaps economic trends which are beyond the understanding of mere mortals, though the perhaps the fact that the generation born in the 1960s began to come prominence in this time played a part (as did some of the - relatively minor - scandals of the 80s plus you had referendums on divorce and abortion in that decade. Both soundly rejected.) All that needs to said is that Father Ted (Ever watched it?) could not have been produced in the 80s let alone earlier.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

So instead of a blue wall of silence, they've got a black wall of silence. Really have to appreciate the parallels here.

Does. Not. Comprehend.