Israel-Gaza war

[Ferguson97]

What the hell was Hamas hoping to gain from this?

[Ferguson97]

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

You are sick in the head. They attacked civilians, not military. There’s a difference.

[Ferguson97]

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

It's a series of deliberate massacres of civilians. No one has a right to do that.

Than why does Hamas do that?

Because they’re evil and want to kill Jews.

[Ferguson97]

Palestinians have the right to fight and resist apartheid state Israël, in fact they should, and everyone who does is a freedom fighter. They have my support. The oppression needs to end, and no one is interested in peace & diplomacy from the international community.

It's a series of deliberate massacres of civilians. No one has a right to do that.

Than why does Hamas do that?

Because they’re evil and want to kill Jews.

They're defending from a genocide being perpetrated on their people. Whoever attacks them is even irrelevant. Also its not jews, its Israeli people that occupy them. That's different, many Jewish people for instance condemn Israël as well. Many of my political idols are Jewish. Many of the greatest communists ever were Jewish.

If Palestine wants to defend itself against the IDF, they will have my support.

I will never support attacks on civilians. That is terrorism.

[Ferguson97]

Whatever injustices accompanied the creation of Israel in 1948, the median age of an Israeli citizen is like 29. Native-born individuals, definitionally, cannot be "settlers." So, unless you're prepared to start pulling out the calipers before deciding who is and who isn't deserving of citizenship or the indigenous label, people need to ditch the blood and soil rhetoric. An Israeli had as much say in their place of birth as a Palestinian. If you believe that your country is under an occupation, that would justify an armed resistance against the occupying military. It never justifies an attack on civilians, especially when it's been almost four generations. 97+% of the people living in Israel today played no part in the formation of the country in 1948. And none of this excuses the treatment of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli government and the IDF. Nobody should be surprised by the resentment that Palestinians feel towards the Israeli government. Hamas takes advantage of these legitimate grievances to advance its own genocidal agenda.

[Ferguson97]

Actions having consequences is a description, not a prescription.

What actions did the Israeli civilians take?

[Ferguson97]

Actions having consequences is a description, not a prescription.

What actions did the Israeli civilians take?

...do you mean other than illegally occupying Palestinian land?

You're acting as if Israel is only a few years old and that the majority of Israel civilians personally conquered Palestine. This is not the Six-Day War. The median age of Israel is 29. 70% of them were born there. They hold as much moral responsibility for the illegal occupation as you and I do for the conquering of Native American lands.

If you want to criticize the formation of Israel, go for it. Want to critisize the IDF, I'm right there with you.

But to suggest that civilians hold moral responsibility for being born in the wrong country is just awful.

The Israeli citizens of today are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors or the Israeli government, just as the Palestinian citizens are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors or Hamas.

[Ferguson97]

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1710799477282390175?s=46&t=kjGKwMpTB...

[Ferguson97]

Ukraine War apparently is over. Zelensky is the biggest loser of this Israel conflict, not only it’s more recent, it’s a way more geopolitically strategic region for the Americans than Ukraine ever was close to be.

Imagine if China declares war with Taiwan too, clearly both Taiwan AND Israel will suck up most of the air inside the West as they’re considered more “important”.

This is an idiotic thing to say.

[Ferguson97]

Ukraine War apparently is over. Zelensky is the biggest loser of this Israel conflict, not only it’s more recent, it’s a way more geopolitically strategic region for the Americans than Ukraine ever was close to be.

Imagine if China declares war with Taiwan too, clearly both Taiwan AND Israel will suck up most of the air inside the West as they’re considered more “important”.

This is an idiotic thing to say.

Nah he's completely right. Israel Palestine takes up an inordinately huge amount of space in our news despite their small size. Ukraine is sadly old news and the media blob is probably ecstatic that there's a new war, and in a country a third of Americans worship to boot.

As a strong supporter of Ukraine I hate it.

It's not going to reduce America's funding for Ukraine, as he's implying.

[Ferguson97]

Genocide is immoral and wrong because it kills innocent people. I don't support genocide.

so reading between the lines here, you obviously support ethnic cleansing

you think that won't kill innocent people??

Yeah, actually. Give the Gazans to Egypt. Pay for the refugee camps even but don't let Gaza continue to exist as a terrorist installation.

And if [when] Egypt says “no, f**k off”?

Give Egypt no choice. Move them past the Egyptian border and Egypt will not be able to say no without sparking an internal revolution.  

You are completely insane.

[Ferguson97]

I don't advocate for any sort of final solution: this would leave the entire West Bank as a continuing problem. It would just move 2 million people from one scrap of desert to another.

And if those 2 million people refuse to move?

[Ferguson97]

I don't advocate for any sort of final solution: this would leave the entire West Bank as a continuing problem. It would just move 2 million people from one scrap of desert to another.

And if those 2 million people refuse to move?

Force them, like Germans in 1946?

.... Dear god, are you under the impression that this comparison makes you look like less of an advocate for ethnic cleansing? The forced expulsion of Germans after World War II resulted in over half a million deaths.

[Ferguson97]

I don't. And I don't have any genocidal desires. I truly hope as few people as possible who are not Hamas members die. But tell me, what alternative solution that does not lead to this ad infinitum, the destruction of Israel, or the deaths of thousands of Israelis policing the Gaza Strip, exists?

A final solution, if you will.

Your whole "we have to ethnically cleanse them before they ethnically cleanse us, it's the only way, they forced our hand, it's them or us" shtick is genuinely one of the, if not the most reprehensible thing I've seen on all of Atlas.

Just really bleak sh-t.

[Ferguson97]

Its not a final solution if it leaves one half of the problem still going. And I don't think it's that simple: the question here is not just about ethnic cleansing, but decades of war. I think it better to do a Greece-Turkey style population movement than to accept decades of mass violence.

...so it's only partially about ethnic cleansing?

Netanyahu tried to blame Palestine for the Holocaust.

Netanyahu is a racist jackass, what else is new?

[Ferguson97]

Its not a final solution if it leaves one half of the problem still going. And I don't think it's that simple: the question here is not just about ethnic cleansing, but decades of war. I think it better to do a Greece-Turkey style population movement than to accept decades of mass violence.

...so it's only partially about ethnic cleansing?

Netanyahu tried to blame Palestine for the Holocaust.

Netanyahu is a racist jackass, what else is new?

I mean yeah, its also about avoiding decades of war. Do you forget what you said? You said I supported resettlement because I wanted to avoid ethnic cleansing of Israelis: my response was that I thought war, terrorism, and bloodshed even more important direct concerns.

Just to be absolutely clear, you are supporting ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to avoid decades of war and an ethnic cleansing of Israelis? Yes or no? Because you view ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as the lesser of two evils?

[Ferguson97]

No, I don't support ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. My proposal is limited to the Gaza Strip, because its unique location and role in terrorism make its continued presence untenable. "Cleansing" is also the wrong word here: it implies that the goal is to "clean" land for some kind of eliminationist purpose, which I would never support. Rather, I support a population transfer/relocation of a specific population concentration to avoid the risk of further conflict. For an analogy, consider how Israel did the same with its own citizens in both 2005, when withdrawing from Gaza, and in 1977, when leaving the Sinai.

And what do you do after they inevitably violently resist against that forced relocation? Don't hide behind a historical comparison. Be specific.

I need you to understand that the forced removal of an ethnic group is not an alternative to ethnic cleansing. It is a form of ethnic cleansing.

[Ferguson97]

No, I don't support ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. My proposal is limited to the Gaza Strip, because its unique location and role in terrorism make its continued presence untenable. "Cleansing" is also the wrong word here: it implies that the goal is to "clean" land for some kind of eliminationist purpose, which I would never support. Rather, I support a population transfer/relocation of a specific population concentration to avoid the risk of further conflict. For an analogy, consider how Israel did the same with its own citizens in both 2005, when withdrawing from Gaza, and in 1977, when leaving the Sinai.

And what do you do after they inevitably violently resist against that forced relocation? Don't hide behind a historical comparison. Be specific.

To occupy Gaza, which everyone here seems to agree (minus Snowstalker) is necessary, Hamas will have to be defeated. To do so, it will use essentially the entire population of Gaza as human shields, soldiers, and bombers. The occupation (here referring to the initial seizure) will only be done when the force to resist is temporarily crushed. Past that point, I do not believe any particular greater degree of force will have to be used than to occupy the Gaza Strip in the first place.

If you actually believe this, then you are delusional.

[Ferguson97]

No, I don't support ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. My proposal is limited to the Gaza Strip, because its unique location and role in terrorism make its continued presence untenable. "Cleansing" is also the wrong word here: it implies that the goal is to "clean" land for some kind of eliminationist purpose, which I would never support. Rather, I support a population transfer/relocation of a specific population concentration to avoid the risk of further conflict. For an analogy, consider how Israel did the same with its own citizens in both 2005, when withdrawing from Gaza, and in 1977, when leaving the Sinai.

And what do you do after they inevitably violently resist against that forced relocation? Don't hide behind a historical comparison. Be specific.

To occupy Gaza, which everyone here seems to agree (minus Snowstalker) is necessary, Hamas will have to be defeated. To do so, it will use essentially the entire population of Gaza as human shields, soldiers, and bombers. The occupation (here referring to the initial seizure) will only be done when the force to resist is temporarily crushed. Past that point, I do not believe any particular greater degree of force will have to be used than to occupy the Gaza Strip in the first place.

If you actually believe this, then you are delusional.

Why?

Why do you think that the Palestinian civilians would not resist their forced expulsion?

[Ferguson97]

Like Austria, Germany also switches from Ukraine to Israel

Stock trader perplexed at the passage of time.

I wonder if these people thought that everyone switching their Facebook profile pictures from the pink equals sign to the French flag back in the 2010s meant they stopped supporting gay marriage. It's the same logic, that you can only care about one thing at once.

[Ferguson97]

MSNBC reporting that US Senator Cory Booker was in Israel at the time of the attacks. He and his staff are safe and have left the country.

[Ferguson97]

Also I'd bet top dollar some of the men are being SAed as well, but that doesn't stir the same rage in people. Smh

I doubt it about grown men (and I'd honestly be surprised if many of the men are still alive) but boys, absolutely. Because there is no level to which Hamas won't sink.

There is a LOT of situational homosexuality in these cultures so I'm not sure. Maybe you're right, but it doesn't change my view that a man's life is just as valuable as a woman's.

The life of a man and the life of a woman are equally valuable on an inherent level, but that doesn’t mean that they’re facing the same risks in a situation like this. When women are prisoners of war, it’s because their captors have something very specific in mind for them.

[Ferguson97]

https://twitter.com/DrDavidInDC/status/1711126327250534484

https://twitter.com/Hitler9/status/11293812509

[Ferguson97]

https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1711432535098462336

[Ferguson97]

https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1711442486311223515

Is this some sort of elaborate suicide by cop?