Gays in the Military

[opebo]

John, I didn't ask you what your definition of a moral was, I asked what your definition of an immoral lifestyle was. If you say that a guy who commits murderous crimes and yet is nice to his wife, you obviously don't understand what being immoral is all about. Are you living an immoral lifestyle if you murder people but are nice to your wife? No, because you're not living in murdering people. Homosexuals, however, are literally living an immoral lifestyle- they are having relations within their personal lives. An immoral lifestyle isn't just committing a single immoral action, but it is living in that iniquity. Gays are living in the iniquity of homosexuality, and therefore they don't live the military's requirement of moral stature. You are correct in stating that for instance honesty is important. However, it is imperative that one takes a phenomenological approach in discussing such matters, meaning, we must predict what could open up if we allow practicing and open homosexuals into the military. Firstly 21% of homosexuals suffer from physical abuse from their partners, compared to less than 8% of heterosexual men (1). This can be a huge threat within the military, as we have seen in the case of the Iraqi abuses. I would not be surprised if many of the US soldiers who committed those crimes were homosexuals. In a similar study of intimate violence within relationships, 15.4% of homosexual men have intimate violence in their relationship, compared to .05% of heterosexual married men (2). These statistics open up the possibility of serious crimes in the military. Why should we take this risk? Just “fire” then when they commit a crime?
 
What must be answered is the question of relativity. If you're a subjectivist, then we have another debate to start. But if you, like me, are an objectivist, then we can continue this discussion without touching the issue of morality too much.

Three locker rooms doesn’t solve the problem. Homosexuals will still be distracted, or distract others. If they go into the men’s shower room, they’ll be distracted. If they go into the unisex shower room, that would simply turn into a gay bathhouse. Finally, if they go into the women’s shower room, they will distract the women. Yes, this will effect the battlefield. Here’s a scenario: if a sergeant is leading his chalk in Baghdad and recently broke up with a member of his chalk, a private, don’t you think that private would have a difficult time obeying commands? This is exactly the reason why we separate women from men in the military.

” Leave it to the individual colleges(is there a law against this anyways?).

I’m asking you personally, none of this libertarianism . Do you think it’s immoral or can cause problems if men and women shower together? I think it can. Even post-adolescent people are attracted to the opposite sex (unless you’re gay); at least I hope most of them are! It would be odd if suddenly after the age of 24 men became asexual.

Without getting too much into the military prostitution debate, we must also understand that prostitution doesn’t just negatively affect the soldier, but also the prostitute. STDs are very high, and even condoms don’t defend against thousands of STDs out there. In addition, prostitution leads to children becoming prostitutes, and in Vietnam child prostitution was a huge problem. Today in Southeast Asia it’s a tremendous problem, especially in Thailand, where boys as young as 8 sell themselves as prostitutes.





1)   "Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence", U.S. Department of Justice: Office of Justice Programs (30)
2)   "Intimate Partner Violence," Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report (11)

There's no such thing as an 'immoral lifestyle'.

And btw, you're completely wrong in your claims about Thailand - prostitution is a normal and accepted thing there, which is one reason it is such a humane and civilized place.  However all are over 18, and in fact this is fairly vigorously policed.  Any exceptions would have to be very much underground, and 'on the run', as in any country.  No one interferes in such totally private, voluntary and mutually beneficial transactions.

[opebo]

Opebo, actually, child prostitution is a huge industry in Thailand. I have friends+relatives who often go or live there, and they always come back asking for prayers about the child prostitution industry in Bangkok. It's not policed there well at all. As a matter of fact, San Francisco has had a problem with illegal prostitution and historically has had some child prostitution. In the 1960s, if I get the dates correctly, there was a huge child prostitution bust in San Francisco in the Castro district (which at that time was about half gay/half italian families, which explains where the children came from). Now we're not talking as bad as in Thailand with 8-year-olds, but there were plenty of teenagers. Even today, I know of a girl who is a prostitute and only 16 from a Socialogist I met who does studies on these kinds of activities.

You're talking about something I know first-hand and intimately, and I can attest - there is no such thing as what you describe.  There is a vast industry with a great many ADULT WOMEN (and men) working in it - and one NEVER sees any underage women in any of the venues, bars, etc.  There is no possible way your friend could have seen such a thing.  If it does exsist it would be deep underground and not visible either to me or to any wandering puritans. 

Probably the explanation is that your friend is partially a liar, and partially deluded - many puritans, when they see a street full of venues for prostitution, staffed by asians (who are more petite than western women and therefore look younger), simply make the wild and absurd assumption that the women are underage and don't want to be there.  In fact the vast majority of women in the business are not only over 18, but most are over 25, and also a majority have had a child - the child is usually the primary economic motivator for wanting to make the huge incomes associated with this trade. 

I have known many of these women very well and even visited the rather posh homes they build back in their hometowns with the money they make - they are ecstatic to have found such an easy way to improve their lives!  Country girls of 25 or 30 making more than middle managers in return for rather easygoing sex acts with some reasonably polite elderly German or American men hardly constitutes a moral outrage. 

[opebo]

Opebo, I think it's very sad that you don't acknowledge the problem in Thailand exists. How do you know first hand? Have you been to Thailand? Have you seen the situtation?

Brambilla, I live in Thailand six months of every year!  Remember that what you find on the internet is not fact - it is mostly propaganda.  There are many puritan organizations that are against prostitution, and it is convenient for them to label all prostitution 'child prostition'.  They simply make up lies.

The fact is that nearly all prositutes in Thailand are very adult women - nearly all over 20, and the majority over 25.  Even girls between 18 and 20 are incredibly rare.  And any under that age would have to be deep underground, as there are laws prohibiting under 18's in the business that are strictly enforced.  Whether I agree with those laws is not the point. 

The point is that puritans misrepresent the nature of prostitution - it is almost invariably a very grown up person voluntarily chosing sex work as a job, and typically a very well paid job.  Puritans think that sex is the worst thing that can happen to a woman - in fact it is not a big deal, and is a much more pleasant job than the alternatives of working in a factory or on a farm.

[opebo]

Okay Opebo. I wont post anymore "propaganda" anymore even though I have friends to confirm this.  However, before I do, I have yet to see any evidence that there isn't a problem, and any sites that list this stuff as propaganda, even the government of Thailand admits it.

Surely it comes as no suprise that a Goverment, even the Thai government, produces propaganda?

[opebo]

Yes, it comes to a great surprise. Most governments try to hide their problems, not expose them. I find it very strange that a nation would throw out propaganda that there is a huge illegal prostitution ring in Thailand.... ri-ght.

No, the other three links you provided were Christian propaganda, but the Thai government site was more of a pacifier to molify the U.S. government and other intruders. 

Besides, I thought your problem with Thailand was this supposed child prostitution, not just plain old 'illegal prostitution'.  Do you have a problem with the adult variety?  (which in fact does exsist)

[opebo]

The truth is, child prostitution does exist. I had a family member who went to Bangkok's Sheraton hotel, and during the afternoon there was nothing to do. So he went to the front desk and asked what kind of things the hotel offered for entertainment. Now, he was thinking a pool, a gym, maybe a little tour of Bangkok, but the first thing that the front desk clerk brought out was a binder of child pornography, and asked him to "make his selection". The binder was child prostitution services, and the clerk was asking him to make his decision on which child to hire.

Absurd.  The binder probably contained photos of adult women, as all such binders do - and I have seen many.  Your friend is just making things up to bolster his puritannical agenda.

[opebo]

Okay, Opebo.

You actually believe that a Sheraton Hotel is more or less openly marketing sex with people under 18?  You need to travel a bit before you believe such nonsense about another country.