Are superhero movies finally becoming less profitable among audiences?

[John Dule]

We can only hope. But I still won't rest until every last copy of the MCU movies is tracked down and destroyed.

[John Dule]

We can only hope. But I still won't rest until every last copy of the MCU movies is tracked down and destroyed.

We can only hope! But can we spare the first Iron Man? I feel like that's probably the only MCU movie I'd rewatch willingly.

That film is responsible for the catastrophe that followed.

Yeah, but at least it feels like it's somewhat grounded in reality. It doesn't just throw Norse gods, space aliens, Russian spies, big green monsters, witches, mutants, WWII veterans, and magicians into one big disgusting melting pot. I honestly think it's impossible to like those Avengers movies unless you have some degree of ADHD.

[John Dule]

We can only hope. But I still won't rest until every last copy of the MCU movies is tracked down and destroyed.

We can only hope! But can we spare the first Iron Man? I feel like that's probably the only MCU movie I'd rewatch willingly.

That film is responsible for the catastrophe that followed.

Yeah, but at least it feels like it's somewhat grounded in reality. It doesn't just throw Norse gods, space aliens, Russian spies, big green monsters, witches, mutants, WWII veterans, and magicians into one big disgusting melting pot. I honestly think it's impossible to like those Avengers movies unless you have some degree of ADHD.

Stop being a Marvel apologist.

Lol. I admit, while I don't hate that first Iron Man movie, I can't bring myself to watch it these days. It's become so tainted that I can't get anything out of it anymore.

[John Dule]

I pity your sad lives.

Get help. You’re in a cult.

[John Dule]

We can only hope. But I still won't rest until every last copy of the MCU movies is tracked down and destroyed.

We can only hope! But can we spare the first Iron Man? I feel like that's probably the only MCU movie I'd rewatch willingly.

That film is responsible for the catastrophe that followed.

Yeah, but at least it feels like it's somewhat grounded in reality. It doesn't just throw Norse gods, space aliens, Russian spies, big green monsters, witches, mutants, WWII veterans, and magicians into one big disgusting melting pot. I honestly think it's impossible to like those Avengers movies unless you have some degree of ADHD.

Stop being a Marvel apologist.

Lol. I admit, while I don't hate that first Iron Man movie, I can't bring myself to watch it these days. It's become so tainted that I can't get anything out of it anymore.

I don't have a problem with it personally, but its impact on American culture has been so terrible that it isn't worth it. There are other good movies that have resulted in terrible things (Star Wars is a great example), but Iron Man ain't good enough in its own right to have been worth all that came later.

This is a fair point. That movie is okay as a standalone film, but my nostalgia blinds me to its horrible cultural impact.

The first two Raimi Spider Man movies + The Dark Knight are better individually but also don’t have anywhere near the same levels of negative cultural impact.

The Incredibles is the only truly great superhero movie. Prove me wrong.

[John Dule]

The latest comic book movies underperformed because they were mediocre and featured B-level characters. If Guardians 3 is as good as expected then all this talk about comic book movie fatigue will look pretty silly, again.

That's the MCU's secret; they're always mediocre.

I'm frankly tired of all this snobbish criticism of the MCU. The same arrogant dismissal of genre movies has been the norm forever whether it was westerns and film noirs in the 40s and 50s, sci-fi and action movies in the 70's and 80's, or comic book movies in the 21st century.

Truly, the MCU will be remembered in the annals of film history in its rightful place beside Disney’s Star Wars and the Hobbit movies.

[John Dule]

The latest comic book movies underperformed because they were mediocre and featured B-level characters. If Guardians 3 is as good as expected then all this talk about comic book movie fatigue will look pretty silly, again.

That's the MCU's secret; they're always mediocre.

I'm frankly tired of all this snobbish criticism of the MCU. The same arrogant dismissal of genre movies has been the norm forever whether it was westerns and film noirs in the 40s and 50s, sci-fi and action movies in the 70's and 80's, or comic book movies in the 21st century.

Truly, the MCU will be remembered in the annals of film history in its rightful place beside Disney’s Star Wars and the Hobbit movies.

Horrible take. The first 3 phases of the MCU were pretty good, for the most part (with the first 2 Thor movies and the Iron Man sequels being the only duds). None of the Disney's Star Wars movies (except Rogue One) were good, and none of the Hobbit movies were good.

It's not a "take." It's an objective fact that those films took zero effort to write, storyboard, produce, film, or act in. They're the dumbest things ever to infest the theaters and they are enjoyed almost exclusively by an army of neckbearded man-children who collect Funko Pop dolls and will watch literally anything that has their favorite brand logo on the poster. Rogue One is also one of the worst films ever made, if not the absolute worst (relative to its budget).

[John Dule]

It's not a "take." It's an objective fact that those films took zero effort to write, storyboard, produce, film, or act in. They're the dumbest things ever to infest the theaters and they are enjoyed almost exclusively by an army of neckbearded man-children who collect Funko Pop dolls and will watch literally anything that has their favorite brand logo on the poster. Rogue One is also one of the worst films ever made, if not the absolute worst (relative to its budget).

Wow! I doubt that even the most jaded Academy members and movie critics reek so much of elitism.
I guess your idea of a fun evening is watching social dramas from third world countries about the evils of post-colonialism and character studies about drug addicts who try to battle their inner demons.

There are plenty of great action movies. Why can’t Marvel neckbeards conceive of the fact that people just hate their movies, and it doesn’t have anything to do with “elitism?” It’s like they know there’s no artistic defense of these films and so they just call anyone who dislikes them “biased.” You don’t see this type of pathetic parasocial excuse-making from any other fan community.

[John Dule]

The latest comic book movies underperformed because they were mediocre and featured B-level characters. If Guardians 3 is as good as expected then all this talk about comic book movie fatigue will look pretty silly, again.

That's the MCU's secret; they're always mediocre.

I'm frankly tired of all this snobbish criticism of the MCU. The same arrogant dismissal of genre movies has been the norm forever whether it was westerns and film noirs in the 40s and 50s, sci-fi and action movies in the 70's and 80's, or comic book movies in the 21st century.

Truly, the MCU will be remembered in the annals of film history in its rightful place beside Disney’s Star Wars and the Hobbit movies.

Horrible take. The first 3 phases of the MCU were pretty good, for the most part (with the first 2 Thor movies and the Iron Man sequels being the only duds). None of the Disney's Star Wars movies (except Rogue One) were good, and none of the Hobbit movies were good.

It's not a "take." It's an objective fact that those films took zero effort to write, storyboard, produce, film, or act in. They're the dumbest things ever to infest the theaters and they are enjoyed almost exclusively by an army of neckbearded man-children who collect Funko Pop dolls and will watch literally anything that has their favorite brand logo on the poster. Rogue One is also one of the worst films ever made, if not the absolute worst (relative to its budget).

The fact that you’re a lifetime sober really does show sometimes

I didn’t realize alcoholism was a prerequisite for film criticism.

[John Dule]

It's not a "take." It's an objective fact that those films took zero effort to write, storyboard, produce, film, or act in. They're the dumbest things ever to infest the theaters and they are enjoyed almost exclusively by an army of neckbearded man-children who collect Funko Pop dolls and will watch literally anything that has their favorite brand logo on the poster. Rogue One is also one of the worst films ever made, if not the absolute worst (relative to its budget).

Wow! I doubt that even the most jaded Academy members and movie critics reek so much of elitism.
I guess your idea of a fun evening is watching social dramas from third world countries about the evils of post-colonialism and character studies about drug addicts who try to battle their inner demons.

There are plenty of great action movies. Why can’t Marvel neckbeards conceive of the fact that people just hate their movies, and it doesn’t have anything to do with “elitism?” It’s like they know there’s no artistic defense of these films and so they just call anyone who dislikes them “biased.” You don’t see this type of pathetic parasocial excuse-making from any other fan community.

Saying you don't like Marvel films is one thing. Angrily denouncing them as worse than Hitler is another.

I don't recall ever saying such a thing. Though to be fair, Triumph of the Will has more artistic merit than anything Marvel has ever produced.

[John Dule]

It's not a "take." It's an objective fact that those films took zero effort to write, storyboard, produce, film, or act in. They're the dumbest things ever to infest the theaters and they are enjoyed almost exclusively by an army of neckbearded man-children who collect Funko Pop dolls and will watch literally anything that has their favorite brand logo on the poster. Rogue One is also one of the worst films ever made, if not the absolute worst (relative to its budget).

Wow! I doubt that even the most jaded Academy members and movie critics reek so much of elitism.
I guess your idea of a fun evening is watching social dramas from third world countries about the evils of post-colonialism and character studies about drug addicts who try to battle their inner demons.

There are plenty of great action movies. Why can’t Marvel neckbeards conceive of the fact that people just hate their movies, and it doesn’t have anything to do with “elitism?” It’s like they know there’s no artistic defense of these films and so they just call anyone who dislikes them “biased.” You don’t see this type of pathetic parasocial excuse-making from any other fan community.

Saying you don't like Marvel films is one thing. Angrily denouncing them as worse than Hitler is another.

I don't recall ever saying such a thing. Though to be fair, Triumph of the Will has more artistic merit than anything Marvel has ever produced.

𐐙𐐨𐑌𐐼  𐐖𐐩𐑆𐐮𐑆!

𐐏𐐬𐑆𐐯𐑁 𐐝𐑋𐐮𐑃 𐐶𐐲𐑆 𐐩 𐑊𐐴𐐲𐑉

[John Dule]

I don't recall ever saying such a thing. Though to be fair, Triumph of the Will has more artistic merit than anything Marvel has ever produced.

Did Kevin Feige steal your girlfriend or something like that?
That would explain your Marvel Derangement Syndrome.

It's an objective fact. The camerawork in that film was innovative and it pushed the craft of filmmaking forward. Marvel has never done anything that cutting-edge. So in a way, yes, Marvel has been worse for cinema than Hitler was.

[John Dule]

It's an objective fact.

There is no such thing if we are talking about art.
Your ignorance is showing.

But we're not talking about art. We're talking about comic book movies.

[John Dule]

Why should I be surprised that talking to Lyndon about film is just as unproductive as talking to him about politics?

If you like those dumbass Marvel movies, defend them. Explain why you think they're examples of good storytelling and make cogent arguments. I understand that your posting ability is limited to uncreative ad-hominems, but at this point you're not even trying to justify your position.

[John Dule]

Why should I be surprised that talking to Lyndon about film is just as unproductive as talking to him about politics?

If you like those dumbass Marvel movies, defend them. Explain why you think they're examples of good storytelling and make cogent arguments. I understand that your posting ability is limited to uncreative ad-hominems, but at this point you're not even trying to justify your position.

So much anger.

Just explain your opinion, dude. Is it really that hard?

[John Dule]

I'll just post this chart again, in case anyone seriously thinks the franchise film takeover isn't real:



X axis is years since 2000. Y axis is the percentage of weeks out of that given year in which the highest-grossing movie in America was an original film. Note the equilibrium up until the mid-to-late 2010s, followed by a rapid divergence as soon as the MCU kicked into full swing. 2020 is an anomaly because theaters were mostly shut down.

[John Dule]

Dule, out of curiosity, do you think the declining originality in movies has anything to do with growing concentration in the entertainment industry? I don't have data to back it up nor do I even know how one would go about proving it, but it certainly seems relevant in that context, and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that given your political views otherwise.

Yeah, Disney's gradual takeover of virtually every major IP is definitely part of it. Nowadays the only way to top the box office is with existing IP, and all those franchises are concentrated in a few studios.

I would say the bigger problem, however, is how expensive these movies are. If you're sinking $300 mil into the production budget alone, you need to approach a billion-dollar box office in order for the investment to be worth the time, advertising, and opportunity costs. When we're talking about figures of that magnitude, the incentive to experiment with original storylines and characters goes straight out the window. Studios will not invest that much money into something that doesn't have a preestablished market that they can count on, which is how we get soft reboots like Jurassic World and The Force Awakens all the time. Literally the only exception is Avatar, which only became possible because of one egomaniac multimillionaire's vision.

I think a lot of this trend has its roots in the failure of big-budget sci-fi movies in the late 2000s and early 2010s. Movies like John Carter and Jupiter Ascending did not have existing fanbases to count on (John Carter was a preestablished series, but how many Edgar Rice Burroughs fans are there today?), and when they bombed at the box office, studios got scared off from investing in big, original sci-fi and fantasy films.

What's so irritating about this is that for every Aquaman they produce, the studios could probably make six decent mid-budget films. But the average moviegoer only sees two or three movies per year, and the studio execs need to be sure that one of those movies will be theirs. So all the funding that could go towards mid-budget productions gets sucked up by these stupid tentpole blockbusters. This answers this dude's question:

Huh? People liking Marvel movies doesn't prevent them from liking good, original movies. No one's forcing you guys to watch Marvel movies, so I don't see why this is an issue. Just let people watch what they want to watch.

It's an issue because studios (no matter how big they are) have finite resources. Every megabudgeted remake is four or five quality films that'll never be produced. The cost just isn't worth it.

This is especially true for the increasingly desperate attempts to remake movies like Ben-Hur, Robocop, and Point Break, which always seem to end in box office disaster, but which studios still for some reason consider "safer" than original scripts. Ben-Hur (2016) had a budget higher than most Tarantino films. Think of all the movies that aren't getting made because the production companies are controlled by unimaginative corporate hacks who know nothing about storytelling. It's disgusting. My hope is that the success of movies like Everything Everywhere All At Once will make studios realize that there's still money and acclaim to be had in the mid-budget range. That movie operated on a budget 1/10th the size of that dumbass Ant-Man: Quantumania movie, and it earned its budget back easily, got rave reviews, and looked visually better than any movie Marvel has ever shat out. If Daniels can make a movie like that for $14 mil, there's no excuse whatsoever for how terrible these tentpole blockbusters are.

[John Dule]

Dule, out of curiosity, do you think the declining originality in movies has anything to do with growing concentration in the entertainment industry? I don't have data to back it up nor do I even know how one would go about proving it, but it certainly seems relevant in that context, and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that given your political views otherwise.

 Studios will not invest that much money into something that doesn't have a preestablished market that they can count on, which is how we get soft reboots like Jurassic World and The Force Awakens all the time. Literally the only exception is Avatar, which only became possible because of one egomaniac multimillionaire's vision.

I'd argue that the last fully original big budget blockbuster I can think off the top of my head was Nolan's Inception. It's not even my favorite Nolan movie (let alone the Kubrickian masterpiece some make it out to be, which it isn't), but one thing I'll never hold against it is that it was incredibly original for the time, and the concepts behind it do not derive off anything else.

Avatar is a total Dances with Wolves/Pocahontas ripoff, btw.

That's fair. I generally think Nolan is extremely overrated, but Inception was a decent film (and pretty spectacular visually and conceptually). Tenet and Interstellar were also original, but definitely not on the same level of success.

Avatar is in a weird category of being both an original film and extremely unoriginal at the same time.

[John Dule]

You’re assuming that if those mega budget sequels/remakes weren’t made, quality movies would made instead. The more likely alternative is that these new, “original” movies would also be garbage. As you said, the production companies are run by unimaginative hacks. The only reason why they’re making dumb remakes in the first place is because they can’t come up with anything new that they could profit off of.

Wrong. There are thousands of screenwriters out there developing original screenplays with legitimate potential. And my argument does not require a conclusion that all the alternative movies would be good. All I'm saying is that one Marvel turd = five or six alternative films, and if just one of those films turned out to be good, it would be a worthy tradeoff.

Anyways, what are you proposing as the solution to this problem? Should the movie industry be nationalized so that we can stop for-profit companies from making low quality cash grabs? Should we throw people in jail for watching too many sequels/spin offs?

Your leftism is showing. It's legitimately alarming that leftists assume that whenever someone says "I don't like something," they must inherently want to make that thing illegal. It demonstrates an unsettling authoritarian mindset that sends chills up my spine.

[John Dule]

You’re assuming that if those mega budget sequels/remakes weren’t made, quality movies would made instead. The more likely alternative is that these new, “original” movies would also be garbage. As you said, the production companies are run by unimaginative hacks. The only reason why they’re making dumb remakes in the first place is because they can’t come up with anything new that they could profit off of.

Wrong. There are thousands of screenwriters out there developing original screenplays with legitimate potential. And my argument does not require a conclusion that all the alternative movies would be good. All I'm saying is that one Marvel turd = five or six alternative films, and if just one of those films turned out to be good, it would be a worthy tradeoff.

Dude, stick to politics where at least you can muddle through and stop talking about movies and movie-making where your ignorance on every possible level is almost physically painful.

It's impossible to tell what you're referring to since you still haven't explained your opinions.

[John Dule]

This is a natural consequence of economies of scale and market concentration. Specifically, Disney has enormous leverage over movie theaters as a result of its position in the entertainment industry. Because of this, the company can extract a higher percentage of revenue from each ticket sale made by movie theaters. Since returns grow linearly based on the number of seats filled, there’s even more incentive to attract as large an audience as possible for each release. Why produce 5 or 6 films with a mid range budget (at least one of which might not turn a profit, increasing risk - looking at you, Strange World) when you can produce 1 or 2 films that are guaranteed to attract large audiences and substantial returns? Of course, if you want to see the downsides of this line of thinking (in addition to many, *many* more disastrous mistakes), look no further than Warner Bros. Discovery.

Sure, but if you're investing over half a billion dollars in one movie's production and marketing, then you have a tremendous amount of risk concentrated in a single product. To be fair, this has paid off for Disney thus far-- but if they just keep making the exact same Marvel/Star Wars products over and over again, it will definitely get old and it will definitely backfire. These movies used to be major events, but now that we've got two or three coming out every year, fatigue is setting in. The Han Solo movie underperformed, each new Star Wars trilogy movie made less than its predecessor, and Marvel has half a dozen movies coming out this year featuring unpopular characters that no one cares about. I am still hopeful that their business model is unsustainable.

EEAAO was produced by A24, a private company with different motivations, incentives, and bargaining power compared to Disney. There’s a reason why companies like A24 and Blumhouse produce more films on a smaller budget: they have to. Disney, on the other hand, is a publicly traded company and has shareholders who want a consistent, increasing return on their investment. A big budget superhero film is a safe and reliable source of revenue for their company, which is exactly what the shareholders want.

This is why anti-trust laws and their judicial interpretation is important. Personally, I think the move towards a purely rule of reason based analysis regarding anti-trust statute has been catastrophic for the entertainment industry and for competition in the economy as a whole.

We'll see how reliable it is going forward. If "The Marvels" and "Blue Beetle" make Iron Man-level money, I'll eat my words.

Also, Disney isn't a "monopoly" in any meaningful sense of the word. They have monopolies on specific, individual IPs-- not an entire industry. I hate them as much as anyone, but they're not at the threshold where I would ever consider using antitrust laws against them.

[John Dule]

When reviewers inevitably mock that Moana remake, I guarantee you some Disney shill will say “You’re just mad that the actors are nonwhite!!!”