is useful idiot useful?

[useful idiot]

Tool

I thought we were cool, man

[useful idiot]

Tool

I thought we were cool, man

That's what you took the name from isn't it?

I first heard the term from the "song", yeah. I used it for the political meaning though.

[useful idiot]

He's okay.

Though indicating that his love for his daughter is not 'unconditional' if she grew up to be lesbian is disconcerting and demonstrates a sinister side in someone who is relatively young

Ok that's disturbing.  But as a poster he's fine.

It would be disturbing if I said it, but I didn't, nor did I even come close to saying something like that. The disturbing thing is how the forum gays, sans the two reasonable ones, seem to think that if I didn't fully embrace the fact that she was a lesbian, if she were, then my love is conditional.

If she were in a relationship with a non-Christian or having sex outside of marriage I'd feel the same way, this isn't picking on homosexuality. That doesn't mean I love her any less. I explicitly stated in that conversation that it wouldn't mean that I wouldn't see her as much as possible, talk to her every day I could, support her financially, or tell her how much I love her every chance I get. All I said was that I probably wouldn't let her partner and her stay over at my house and that I probably wouldn't go to any kind of marriage ceremony she were to have, if she chose to. I also said in that thread that it was possible that I would change my mind, but at this point it was unlikely. Considering it was a hypothetical, it's only a remote possibility that I would be placed in that situation, and I made it clear that if she were to tell me she were a lesbian that my perspective would probably change. Although I should add that we weren't talking about lesbians in that thread, but gay sons. I don't even have a son so I'm probably never going to be in that specific situation; I said that if my daughter told me she were a lesbian I'd think she was going through a phase or trying to get attention, like so many girls do nowadays, and that it would take me a couple years to even believe her.

I really don't understand the need for so many gays to get constant validation of their sexual orientation. If somebody thinks homosexuality is anything less than wonderful then they're "sinister" and hateful. Given the fact that I don't oppose gay marriage or gay protections under the law, it doesn't carry over into politics so I don't see any reason for them to care.

[useful idiot]

Goodness me, what an original topic; let me give that penetrating and original line of questioning my earnest attention...

useful idiot is useful. And an idiot, but he knows that so it's all-good.

I can live with that

[useful idiot]

Given the fact that I don't oppose gay marriage or gay protections under the law, it doesn't carry over into politics so I don't see any reason for them to care.

Interesting; that's an even worse position than I thought you held. You don't oppose them in principle...but would ignore them if your daughter wished to exercise them.

This is stupid. I think lots of things should be legal that I don't wish for my daughter to engage in. I think prostitution should be legalized, but I don't want her turning tricks.

I said that if my daughter told me she were a lesbian I'd think she was going through a phase or trying to get attention, like so many girls do nowadays, and that it would take me a couple years to even believe her.

So in short you wouldn't believe your own daughter; you wouldn't think she knew her own mind. That's very sad actually.

And yes it demonstrates conditional love.

Half the teenage chicks in the U.S. goes through a bi or lesbian phase nowadays, a bi-product of the homosexual agenda. That's what's "very sad"

I love how you're making moral judgements about me and telling me about love, when nobody can do the same to you or other gays, lest they be subject to nasty bitchiness.

I also love how you're even pretending to understand the relationship between a father and his daughter, something you'll never experience. Which brings me to another point, I'm sorry for wanting grandkids, that must make me a terrible person too...

[useful idiot]

"homosexual agenda"....and what agenda would that be, precisely?

The constant media campaign to promote homosexuality as both an identity worthy of special recognition and as a subculture. It leads to the impression that it is an "alternative lifestyle" that one should be thankful for and celebrate, rather than what it is, an inclination to want to have sex with someone of the same gender. This is coupled with the fact that the heterosexual male is constantly under attack, presenting men as animals whose only goal in life is to sleep with as many women as possible and treat them as horribly as they can. Also unfortunate is the glorification of casual female bisexuality through the promotion of the idea that all men think it's hot when chicks have sex with each other. This leads girls to either want to be lesbians, because they think all men are dogs, or to become promiscuous in order to please men because of societal pressure. Neither is a positive development and neither can be separated from the other.

[useful idiot]

"homosexual agenda"....and what agenda would that be, precisely?

The constant media campaign to promote homosexuality as both an identity worthy of special recognition and as a subculture. It leads to the impression that it is an "alternative lifestyle" that one should be thankful for and celebrate, rather than what it is, an inclination to want to have sex with someone of the same gender. This is coupled with the fact that the heterosexual male is constantly under attack, presenting men as animals whose only goal in life is to sleep with as many women as possible and treat them as horribly as they can. Also unfortunate is the glorification of casual female bisexuality through the promotion of the idea that all men think it's hot when chicks have sex with each other. This leads girls to either want to be lesbians, because they think all men are dogs, or to become promiscuous in order to please men because of societal pressure. Neither is a positive development and neither can be separated from the other.

     I've never heard of homosexuality being described as an alternative lifestyle except by conservatives seeking to condemn homosexuals as perversive. I do suspect there is something to the notion of girls pretending to be bisexual in order to get attention from boys.

My point was that the portrayal of homosexuality in the media often leads people to believe that it's a lifestyle, that it's a culture and identity that people are a part of aside from mere sexual activity. This leads, in my mind, to teens of both genders who are already impressionable and going through a lot of changes to become confused and question their sexuality, possibly arriving at the idea that they might be gay. In the case of women, if they don't feel attracted to the stereotype of the asshole male or if they want to get men's attention, and in the case of men, whereas they don't fit the heterosexual male stereotype.

[useful idiot]

Useful, you're making yourself sound worse with each post. 'Homosexual agenda' FFS? You're 23 man. You also seem to be relcutant to describe homosexuality and bisexuality as anything but a peer pressured teenage 'phase'; yeah kids experiment, or try to figure out in the big bundle of hormones what they are, but lots of kids grow up to be gay.

I know what it's like to be accused of 'going through a phase' and not knowing my own mind. I don't think anyone should have to suffer that especially from a parent that they have chosen to confide in.

You're putting words in my mouth, my response was to why I probably wouldn't accept my daughter as gay immediately if she were to come out as a teenager. I never said that there are kids who don't grow up to be gay, I'm just saying, and I'm sure that this isn't new information to anyone, lots of girls "experiment" or claim to be lesbians in high school when they are not. This is far less common among boys, which is why if a son of mine were to tell me he were gay I would certainly be more likely to take it seriously.

A gay agenda exists, whether or not one sees it. If someone doesn't see it then they either don't want to or agree with its premise to begin with. Not all gays are a part of it, many who are a part of it aren't gay. It's a calculated effort on the part of the media and popular culture to promote sexuality as the primary factor in an individual's identity in order to create cultural and political change, with goals that extend far beyond acceptance of homosexuals in public life or protections under the law. Its goal is ultimately the destruction of basic social mores and Christianity in particular. I don't accept that. It's why gay groups sign on to a whole list of liberal social agendas that have absolutely nothing to do with homosexual rights. It is part of a larger movement. It's certainly possible to exist as a homosexual and not take part in this, I know gays who wouldn't ascribe to the gay liberation movement or its "culture".

If someone is gay, I'm fine with that. They're free to do whatever they want as long as they aren't harming anyone else, and if the political system within a particular country doesn't respect that, then the law should be changed. I have no problem having gay friends, and I do, and I don't tell them how to live their lives, it's not my job. I also have friends who have sex out of marriage(a majority), who do drugs recreationally, who aren't Christians, and whom I disagree with a whole range of issues. I'm not trying to change them. I'm not going to tell them that I approve of their lifestyles, however. I wouldn't go to a gay bar with my gay friends, I wouldn't attend their "wedding" ceremonies. If they didn't accept that then they wouldn't be my friends, because they know who I am and what I believe. I'm also not going to encourage my straight friends to have sex outside of marriage. If they do, then that's they're business.

When it comes to my daughter, I will accept her as gay if she wants to live that way. I have no other choice, because my love is unconditional. If my love were conditional and she told me she was gay I wouldn't have anything to do with her. I do not however, have to approve of everything she does in a public way. It's the same if she were to get married to a non-Christian in a synagogue or mosque or whatever, I wouldn't attend. It would be a public sign of my approval of something that I do not believe in. I wouldn't let boys sleep over at my house while she is there, period. I wouldn't let her and a man she is living with but not married to sleep under my roof. If I were to meet her "partner" I would be nothing but cordial, the same with a non-Christian if she were to marry one. I probably wouldn't be very cordial to a man she was sleeping with outside of marriage or living with though.

[useful idiot]

It's the same if she were to get married to a non-Christian in a synagogue or mosque or whatever, I wouldn't attend.

why is that a problem? my mom wants me to marry a russian jew but she knows that is not happening. she just wants me to be happy and marry a reliable nice man. So does your approval come before her happiness? Could you really not get over where you are for her lifetime of happiness? as far as the religions they are basically believe in the same thing. so I don't get the big deal of that.

"My approval" doesn't mean anything. This has nothing to do with familial traditions or whether or not I think one religious grouping has prettier services or more fun holidays. I also think your evaluation of "happiness" is inaccurate, but I understand why you think the way you do. In fact, I understand why most of you think the way you do, which is why I'm not jumping down any of your throats for disagreeing with me. It's why I haven't called any of you "sinister" or unloving or accused you of having a dark side, like has been done to me for saying what I might feel or do were an unlikely hypothetical situation to occur. I haven't attacked anyone on this thread, told anyone they were going to hell, or tried to evangelize to anyone. I haven't done those things on these forums, nor do I intend to.

I'm slowly discovering that the best thing to do is just not respond, because all any of you want is a response to twist, mis-characterize, or mock in order further harden you in your beliefs or to provide a punching bag.

[useful idiot]

What does unconditional love mean to me as a parent? It means genial indifference, in the sense, that you are there when your kids need you for advice or whatever, or just to vent, or to step in if they are crashing and burning, to try to lend a hand, but otherwise, they are free to live their own lives as they see it, without you punishing them one way or the other, or asking what they are doing all the time, or to put emotional pressure on them to conform to some behavior with which you find favor, and so on. They are not your template, they are not someone obligated to share  your opinions or anything else, other than to be productive and law abiding citizens, and to punish them in some way when they stray from your template is just beyond the pale. Period. In fact, I don't think such folks are fit to be parents really.

And I would agree with everything you just said. I suppose it all depends on what your definition of punishment is. I'd never try to micromanage my daughters life, try to force her to do anything against her will, or tell her what kind of life she should lead. However I don't think the only two objections I have outlined, sleeping arrangements in my home or attendance at a commitment ceremony of some kind, really qualify as punishment. I know that in this society we tend to want everyone to constantly validate us or we are completely offended, but familial relationships, even those between a parent and child, are two way streets. Why would my daughter even want to try to guilt trip me into doing things I'd have objections to, such as sleeping in my home with her partner or making me go to a ceremony? I can understand the argument that she might want me to do these things to prove that I love her, but frankly, that's a fairly cheap standard for love.

[useful idiot]

It's the same if she were to get married to a non-Christian in a synagogue or mosque or whatever, I wouldn't attend.

why is that a problem? my mom wants me to marry a russian jew but she knows that is not happening. she just wants me to be happy and marry a reliable nice man. So does your approval come before her happiness? Could you really not get over where you are for her lifetime of happiness? as far as the religions they are basically believe in the same thing. so I don't get the big deal of that.

"My approval" doesn't mean anything. This has nothing to do with familial traditions or whether or not I think one religious grouping has prettier services or more fun holidays. I also think your evaluation of "happiness" is inaccurate, but I understand why you think the way you do. In fact, I understand why most of you think the way you do, which is why I'm not jumping down any of your throats for disagreeing with me. It's why I haven't called any of you "sinister" or unloving or accused you of having a dark side, like has been done to me for saying what I might feel or do were an unlikely hypothetical situation to occur. I haven't attacked anyone on this thread, told anyone they were going to hell, or tried to evangelize to anyone. I haven't done those things on these forums, nor do I intend to.

I'm slowly discovering that the best thing to do is just not respond, because all any of you want is a response to twist, mis-characterize, or mock in order further harden you in your beliefs or to provide a punching bag.

what is happiness to you then?

I am not trying to slam you or anything. sorry if I came across that way.

No I didn't think you were trying to slam me. Honestly yours was probably the most well intentioned post in the thread, and I'm sorry that I lumped all that in with the response to your question, it was a reaction to other posts in the thread.

Happiness isn't really something quantifiable, but I'd say that my definition of happiness differs from someone who doesn't share my beliefs. I'll leave it at that, because I don't want this to be a theological discussion.

But honestly, if I thought my daughter would be truly happy by having me attend some kind of commitment ceremony, I could see myself doing it. I'd have personal objections, but like I said earlier, my perspective would almost certainly change. If she would be hurt and never forgive me, then obviously I'd have to do it. But if she was understanding of my position and gave me the choice, without consequence, I would opt not to.

[useful idiot]

Useful, you don't think refusing to attend your daughter's wedding with someone with whom you disapprove (e.g., based on gender or religion) would be anything other than a bridge  burner?  Don't you understand that that might mean that you may not see your grand kids very often potentially?  If a parent did that to me I would be very angry. It would take me a long time to forgive a parent for that betrayal, which is what I would consider it. Just something to ponder.

Like I just said to Annie, and as I have consistently said, if it came down to me not being able to see my grandkids often or if it would sour the relationship, I'd have to attend

If I had a daughter who were a lesbian, that would be outside of her control. I understand and accept that. Being gay is something you are, not something you do necessarily, that I also understand. Having a "wedding" however, is an action. I don't consider it a wedding, I don't consider a gay marriage to be a marriage at all. It has nothing to do with personal animosity towards gays. If they want to have a ceremony and call it a wedding, then they should be able to do it. I would try to draw the distinction and tell her why I would feel more comfortable not going.

If it were to a non-Christian, I also understand it could be a bridge burner. It would be my preference not to attend, however. I'll also add that I have FAR less sympathy towards this idea than I do if she were gay.

We're talking about adults here, and it's clear that you come at this issue solely from the perspective of a son, not a parent. Parents are people too, who are allowed to have their own beliefs, ideas, and make their own decisions. If my daughter weren't able to respect my beliefs, ideas, or decisions but require me to respect hers, then some sort of bridge has already been burned.

[useful idiot]

Yes I understand your point of view, useful, and my perspective is as both a child and a parent as it were. Hopefully your course will not lead to "unnecessary" pain and sadness. There is enough of that around as it is. In my opinion, your point of view is something of a indictment of organized religion in and of itself, but that is from the perspective of one suspicious of the same I admit. Anyway, thanks for the conversation. It was interesting, and I think you enunciated your perspective quite well, bringing the issue to a head, so that it reached the point, where all that can be said has been. That is all too rare in arguments. Thanks.

I didn't know you were a parent, sorry for making the assumption.

And thank you for being as gracious as you have been. I wish everyone on this forum, myself included, were as civilized as you are, and I don't think I'm being overly generous when I say that.

This issue of applying my beliefs consistently is one that I've struggled with, so I don't want to give off the impression that I'm some cold heartless bastard. It has lost me a couple friends who were unwilling to accept the fact that I didn't embrace things they did which I disagreed with(things that I did previously quite often and used to have no problem with, to be fair to them). However I still have lots of friends who know what I believe without sharing that belief and we get along fine. It does seem, however, as in this conversation, I end up having to agree to disagree far more often than before. Make of that what you will...

[useful idiot]

Given the fact that I don't oppose gay marriage or gay protections under the law, it doesn't carry over into politics so I don't see any reason for them to care.

Interesting; that's an even worse position than I thought you held. You don't oppose them in principle...but would ignore them if your daughter wished to exercise them.

This is stupid. I think lots of things should be legal that I don't wish for my daughter to engage in. I think prostitution should be legalized, but I don't want her turning tricks.

I said that if my daughter told me she were a lesbian I'd think she was going through a phase or trying to get attention, like so many girls do nowadays, and that it would take me a couple years to even believe her.

So in short you wouldn't believe your own daughter; you wouldn't think she knew her own mind. That's very sad actually.

And yes it demonstrates conditional love.

Half the teenage chicks in the U.S. goes through a bi or lesbian phase nowadays, a bi-product of the homosexual agenda. That's what's "very sad"

I love how you're making moral judgements about me and telling me about love, when nobody can do the same to you or other gays, lest they be subject to nasty bitchiness.

I also love how you're even pretending to understand the relationship between a father and his daughter, something you'll never experience. Which brings me to another point, I'm sorry for wanting grandkids, that must make me a terrible person too...

I'm sorry, but kindly go f**k yourself. If Andrew and I want to have children in the future, when we're financially able to support them, then we can. Seriously, what sort of cheap shot is that supposed to be? I hope your daughter joins the Dykes On Bikes.

I'm sorry if you took it that way, it wasn't meant to be a "cheap shot". If he ever does have a child then ok, whatever. I just assumed that he wouldn't, seeing as how he can't really conceive a child naturally unless he sleeps with a woman and most gays, no matter how much it's talked about, don't adopt children. But even if he and you adopted a kid, no matter how much you two love that child(and I love adoption, I plan to do it), it's still not the same as having your own child in a way that is relatable. I love my little brother, who almost is young enough to be my son, a lot and I basically acted as a second dad to him. But it no way did that love or relationship ever prepare me emotionally for having a child.

Whatever, I don't why I'm still talking to you people, this is a prime example of what I was talking about earlier. This thread has run out of steam for nearly two days and you're dragging up something to nitpick and take in the worst possible way. So go f-ck yourself too, and step off your high horse. I seriously don't understand how anyone gets offended by anything on the internet, or cares enough to seriously feel emotion from anything someone here writes. If you think I'm bad, there are lots of places you could go on the internet and find millions of people who absolutely hate you and everything you represent. They think you're disgusting, what you do should be illegal, and that you shouldn't have the right to live whatever life you choose. And there are at least a few hundred million people in the world who think so or worse. I think it's clear that you need some serious perspective, I haven't said anything against homosexuals as people, and I don't even talk about homosexuality on this site. I responded once to a thread asking how you'd react if your child came out, and I answered honestly. I always answer honestly, which I'd rather people do than try to get along all the time under false pretenses.

These "opinion of [insert username]" threads are retarded anyway, and shouldn't even be allowed, but this one even moreseo because we're not debating any political issue, but my personal life. I haven't brought up anything about homosexuals since that thread long ago, and I haven't been mean to Afleitch, or you, at all. I even asked Afleitch to send me an essay he'd written on homosexuality and the Bible, and I took it seriously. I think sensible people can disagree without attacking the character of the other, but I guess "sensible" kind of flies out of the window on this site.

In any event, even if I had meant my comment in a nasty way, it would still have a lot more truth to it and not be as bad as having my love for my daughter questioned, being called "sinister", having someone say I don't deserve a child, or being told I have a serious dark side. I haven't made any moral judgments against anyone on this site, even against opebo, and I'd appreciate it if this thread could be locked or just ended, because it serves no purpose. It isn't a discussion of politics or relevant to anything that should be discussed on this forum.