Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[Coldstream]

The Ukrainians are going to bleed the Russians until they leave, and they are going to do so with (at least) the funding and diplomatic support of the Western World. The Russian army of 2021 isn’t the Red Army of 1941-45, bound together by ideology and fear of Nazi extermination, it’s cold and hungry and being sent to die in a foreign country for a madman’s vanity. The Russians may conquer Ukraine, but they will never hold it.

[Coldstream]

One thing I’ve not seen talked about, what’s happening to the remaining Pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine? The so called “opposition platform” made up of ex Party of Regions officials came 2nd in the 2019 parliamentary elections with 43 seats. I’d be interested to see if any of them have chosen to stand with their people or run off to support their Kremlin paymasters.

[Coldstream]

One thing I’ve not seen talked about, what’s happening to the remaining Pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine? The so called “opposition platform” made up of ex Party of Regions officials came 2nd in the 2019 parliamentary elections with 43 seats. I’d be interested to see if any of them have chosen to stand with their people or run off to support their Kremlin paymasters.

Just adding that "second" was still an incredibly dismal performance. SotP cleaned house and won a massive supermajority. I am also curious as to whether the Opposition Platform people are traitors or not.

Oh yeah I didn’t mean to imply they had any support, just that there’s 43 people who ought to be on the list of Fifth columnists unless they make some immediate moves to support the Ukrainian military. I’d be keen to find out what has happened to them.

[Coldstream]

I never doubted Ukraine would throw the fascists into the sea. Mariupol by Christmas!

[Coldstream]

I never doubted Ukraine would throw the fascists into the sea. Mariupol by Christmas!

At this rate it could be Moscow by Christmas.

[Coldstream]

I never doubted Ukraine would throw the fascists into the sea. Mariupol by Christmas!

At this rate it could be Moscow by Christmas.

And you'd still have Putin saying everything is going as plan.

Putin is that old meme of the dog in the burning house.

[Coldstream]

If Putin tries to drop a nuke on Ukraine he will get fragged. It is not a serious concern.

[Coldstream]

Chechen elite fighters have now returned from their vacation and are on the frontlines. Vows for another Mariupol, Lysychansk, Popasna, etc.. for Ukrainian fighters. And promises to cleanse and liberate all of Ukraine from "Nazism" and "Satanism"

https://twitter.com/siadevinci/status/1569207799468417026

Imagine the Ukrainians terror that the Ramsay Bolton cosplayer who’s spent the war praying at petrol stations is after them.

[Coldstream]

Not sure where the argument of the Russian state collapsing a ala 1991 Soviet Union comes from. With the exception of Chechnya there’s virtually nowhere that has any practical autonomy or a private power base to launch independence from. And whilst there’s a non-zero chance if Putin gets deposed and his successor sues for peace that Chechnya might do a UDI - I can’t see anyone else who could/would follow suit.

[Coldstream]

Yeah, these people are very clearly colonial officers complicit in a project of cultural genocide. They're entitled to a fair trial, of course, but Ukraine has every right to throw the book at them.

Some, perhaps even most. But, as with the missionaries - there must have been a substantial minority who primarily wanted to teach literacy or maths to kids in a desperate area. Probably a lot of delusion affecting these people (as with the soldiers who thought they weren't attacking Ukraine in the first phase), but a case-by-case basis might be better for them than a minimum of 8 years in prison.

TimTurner's point about amnesty is pertinent, especially as Ukraine approaches February 23 lines (which it might well push beyond). "Just following orders" isn't morally acceptable even for conscripts, but some legal leniency might be for the best when it comes to mobilised men who have essentially been treated as slaves. Ukraine should seek to inspire further surrenders from LDPR men who are being told by the Russians that the best treatment they can get is to fight for Putin with an 1890s rifle in hand, although there is an incentive not to do this so long as Russia holds more POWs to exchange than Ukraine.

Of course there's going to have to be some distinction made between people who went along with their lives when they thought Russia would be their long-term future, and people who went above and beyond to cozy up with the occupier as a way to accrue power (especially if that power was wielded to oppress their countrymen). But calling for a blanket amnesty seems frankly preposterous. Not only is it an insult to the vast majority of Ukrainians who either silently endured occupation or actively fought against it, but it creates plenty of perverse incentives of its own. I have to imagine that the knowledge that they might be held accountable by Ukraine (or even, at this stage, by Ukrainian partisans) is keeping at least a few would-be collaborators at bay. Besides, it doesn't seem like a great idea to entrust the future of liberated territories to people who have shown a willingness to actively prop up their occupation as long as it was convenient.

I know the word "denazification" has taken a quite perverse connotation when associated with this war, but when it comes to the real denazification, the general consensus (at least among people left of center) is that it didn't go far enough, not that it went too far. Clearly people at the time felt differently, and they no doubt had in mind a lot of the reasons you and Tim are talking about. But I hope we can agree they were wrong - that there were higher considerations that should have prevailed over those. I think the logic applies just as much here. By all means, sort out the grunts from the ringleaders - but justice for the latter should be swift.

100% agreed. The fact Hans Globke was able to hold high office in West Germany well in to the 60s despite his involvement in the Nuremberg laws is a stain on Germany *and* the allies. The Nazis should have been torn out root & stem, same should happen with Putin and his acolytes. The fact some are merely civil servants getting on with their jobs (“only following orders”) is irrelevant. The Ukrainians have learnt by now the dangers of the alternative.

[Coldstream]

Personally I’ve always seen collaborators as people who either are crucial to the occupying regime or otherwise benefit from the arrangement. I’m pretty hardline on it personally, I think people who think fascism is wrong but go along with it anyway for an easy life are as reprehensible as you can get.

In Ivan’s case, he should have refused to follow their orders and resigned. Perhaps that’s a difficult choice to make, but choosing to stay serving the Russians is not a neutral act - it is making a choice. I don’t think you need to hang someone for that, or even lock them up, but if the Ukrainians want to make an example of collaborators that’s their right.

[Coldstream]

Who’d have thought selecting people for their violent and antisocial tendencies, training them in advanced combat, arming them and sending them off to fight a war for you could have a downside.

[Coldstream]

Personally I never got why people saw Prigozhin as a potential political successor, to me he always seemed an Ernst Rohm type rather than a politician.

[Coldstream]

Personally I never got why people saw Prigozhin as a potential political successor, to me he always seemed an Ernst Rohm type rather than a politician.

Called it.

[Coldstream]

US actor Woody Harrelson is a great man:

https://twitter.com/CensoredMen/status/1700638380101337157
When asked about the Ukraine War, this is the response he gave. Extremely smart to poke at the Western hypocrisy in the middle of all this while still condemning the invasion of Ukraine.

Cool. Another traitor who needs to be deported.

His mob hitman father would be so proud.