Israel General Election Thread: March 17 2015

[ag]

No Jew at that time would've said that what made Jews unique was their status as a minority -- it was their unique traditions and values, which they were trying (successfully) to protect.

Which traditions and values? The Yiddish and other Diaspora traditions that Zionists despised? Or the religious traditions that the founders of the state did not care about a yota?

They didn't despise the former. It was a natural byproduct of trying to scrub off the Europeanness from them. Which is perfectly natural, considering the circumstances.

So, they invented the notion of Jewishness, that had nothing to do with anybody they actually knew. This was no different from Spaniards trying to restore the Visigothic past, by denying the intervening 1500 years. May be you find that understandable - I do not.

[ag]

And no, persecution is not a Jewish monopoly. Persecution of Jews could be considered one however.

Is persecution of Jews any different from persecution of Gypsies?

[ag]

One could ask very well why they adopted Ladino instead- after all, we're not only talking about lily-white Jews here.

Hebrew would quite naturally weave a much closer fabric. I shudder to think of Arye Deri conversing in Yiddish, and Lieberman responding in Ladino. It would be chaos!

They did not adopt Ladino - Ladino is pretty much dead, they killed it as well.

And, of course, their objective was to "weave a fabric" where I see no need of having done so. To "weave" that "fabric" they sacrificed what was their tradition, and had multiple traditions assimilated into one - the one they invented. So, no, they did not care about preserving Jewish traditions: they wanted to create the new traditions.

I still shudder when I hear that falafel is, somehow, "Jewish food". Jewish food is gefilte fish and farshmak on bagel. That is what my great grandmother made. And don't give me any of that bullshoot about falafel (I hate it).

[ag]

Yes, in that it is Jews who are being persecuted, rather than Gypsies.

And does this distinction - at all - matter?

[ag]

Hebrew would quite naturally weave a much closer fabric. I shudder to think of Arye Deri conversing in Yiddish, and Lieberman responding in Ladino. It would be chaos!

BTW, Armenian and Chinese jewelers in NY talk Yiddish to each other - and there is no chaos.

[ag]

What do you mean "does it matter"? If you are asking if one is worse than the other, no. If you are asking whether a solution for one can be used as a solution for the other, I am skeptical. The nomadic nature of Gypsies makes it hard for them to establish a state- same as the Bedouin.

Creation of the Jewish State did nothing to stop persecution of Jews in Yemen or Iraq - except by accelerating their forced expulsion. So, I refuse to consider this a solution - unless, of course, you are willing to consider Holocaust a "solution" (it most definitely stops any further persecution). The very word "solution" in this case has very unfortunate connotations. I would avoid using it.

And, of course, there is ample precedent for nomadic states.

[ag]

One could ask very well why they adopted Ladino instead- after all, we're not only talking about lily-white Jews here.

Hebrew would quite naturally weave a much closer fabric. I shudder to think of Arye Deri conversing in Yiddish, and Lieberman responding in Ladino. It would be chaos!

They did not adopt Ladino - Ladino is pretty much dead, they killed it as well.

And, of course, their objective was to "weave a fabric" where I see no need of having done so. To "weave" that "fabric" they sacrificed what was their tradition, and had multiple traditions assimilated into one - the one they invented. So, no, they did not care about preserving Jewish traditions: they wanted to create the new traditions.

I still shudder when I hear that falafel is, somehow, "Jewish food". Jewish food is gefilte fish and farshmak on bagel. That is what my great grandmother made. And don't give me any of that bullshoot about falafel (I hate it).

The point is that everyone knowing two languages (yes, I think Israelis should learn Arabic) is hard enough, trying to throw Yiddish in, and then Ladino to satisfy the Sephardim, and Amharic to satisfy the Ethiopians, would be chaos.

Well, if you invent an objective and sacrifice everything else for it, I see your point. But somebody here was saying that early Zionists cared about preserving Jewish traditions - whereas they murdered them "for a greater cause". I see no difference between switching to Hebrew or switching to Chinese - in both cases you assimilate to another culture.

[ag]

Why you being racist against sephardim?

Falafel is no more "sephardic" then it is ashkenazic (they did not eat falafel in Spain, I am pretty sure - not sure about Salonika). In any case, the current "Israeli falafel" is no different from its Palestinian variety - nobody would associate it with Jews a century ago. 

And, of ocurse, my kind of Jews have a lot more in common with Poles than with the Sephardim culturally and gastronomically. Are you surprized?

[ag]

One could ask very well why they adopted Ladino instead- after all, we're not only talking about lily-white Jews here.

Hebrew would quite naturally weave a much closer fabric. I shudder to think of Arye Deri conversing in Yiddish, and Lieberman responding in Ladino. It would be chaos!

They did not adopt Ladino - Ladino is pretty much dead, they killed it as well.

And, of course, their objective was to "weave a fabric" where I see no need of having done so. To "weave" that "fabric" they sacrificed what was their tradition, and had multiple traditions assimilated into one - the one they invented. So, no, they did not care about preserving Jewish traditions: they wanted to create the new traditions.

I still shudder when I hear that falafel is, somehow, "Jewish food". Jewish food is gefilte fish and farshmak on bagel. That is what my great grandmother made. And don't give me any of that bullshoot about falafel (I hate it).

The point is that everyone knowing two languages (yes, I think Israelis should learn Arabic) is hard enough, trying to throw Yiddish in, and then Ladino to satisfy the Sephardim, and Amharic to satisfy the Ethiopians, would be chaos.

Well, if you invent an objective and sacrifice everything else for it, I see your point. But somebody here was saying that early Zionists cared about preserving Jewish traditions - whereas they murdered them.

Traditions get created and destroyed all the time. I have some European Jewish friends- none of them speak Yiddish. I highly doubt Yiddish would remain relevant, whether or not Israel was founded.

Well, but, at least, you have, it seems, agreed, that early Zionists couldn´t give a frock about the traditions, except the "traditions" they themselves invented. So, clearly, it was not a matter of preserving traditions that prevented them from assimilating into another society.

As for Yiddish... Hitler, of course, took care of the European Yiddishkeit. Zionists provided a coup de grace. Well, perhaps if the dead man were not murdered, he would have died by now. Quite likely in fact. So, should the murderer go free? Or are you suggesting it was a mercy killing?

[ag]

Why you being racist against sephardim?

Falafel is no more "sephardic" then it is ashkenazic (they did not eat falafel in Spain, I am pretty sure - not sure about Salonika). In any case, the current "Israeli falafel" is no different from its Palestinian variety - nobody would associate it with Jews a century ago. 

And, of ocurse, my kind of Jews have a lot more in common with Poles than with the Sephardim culturally and gastronomically. Are you surprized?

Salonika certainly. Turkey almost certainly. Quite likely in the Mahgreb, which is Sephardic. This of course completely ignores the Mizrachi Jews.

And I am not surprised. However your statement that Jewish food means gefilte fish, etc. is not the same thing.

Well, we have agreed that we have different notions of Jewishness. Yes, as far as I am concerned, Sephardim are no different from any other Moroccans And I do love the proper Moroccan food (never saw them eating much falafel, though).

[ag]

This is silly. correlation does not imply causation. The early Israeli leaders discouraged use of Yiddish in Israel. However they had no control over Jews in Europe. If Yiddish disappeared in Europe, it is not because of Ben-Gurion.

They not merely encouraged the use of Hebrew: they openly despised the use of Yiddish. Given the enfeebled state of Yiddishkeit post-Holocaust, the strong new Zionist culture seemed attractive, so Yiddish fizzled: Hitler won their battle for them, though, of course, I have no doubt that they were not at all happy about the manner their victory came about.

It is not, really, that I blame Ben Gurion - I do not. He was perfectly in his right to do what he did, invent the mythology he did, use the opportunities that came up. But I do object to the idea that Ben Gurion was, somehow, preserving Jewish traditions: he invented the Israeli traditions instead.

[ag]

Why you being racist against sephardim?

Falafel is no more "sephardic" then it is ashkenazic (they did not eat falafel in Spain, I am pretty sure - not sure about Salonika). In any case, the current "Israeli falafel" is no different from its Palestinian variety - nobody would associate it with Jews a century ago.  

And, of ocurse, my kind of Jews have a lot more in common with Poles than with the Sephardim culturally and gastronomically. Are you surprized?

Salonika certainly. Turkey almost certainly. Quite likely in the Mahgreb, which is Sephardic. This of course completely ignores the Mizrachi Jews.

And I am not surprised. However your statement that Jewish food means gefilte fish, etc. is not the same thing.

Well, we have agreed that we have different notions of Jewishness. Yes, as far as I am concerned, Sephardim are no different from any other Moroccans And I do love the proper Moroccan food (never saw them eating much falafel, though).

Most Jews throughout history would disagree with you on this point.

Well, they have had no trouble, really, cutting the Karaites off (for all practical purposes). What is so different about the Sephardim?

And, I am pretty certain, most Jews throughout history (pre-1947) would have agreed with me on falafel.

[ag]

Most Rabbis consider Karaites to be Halakhically Jewish, and they are classified as Jewish in Israel. The only person who did not consider them Jewish was Hitler.

And why are you pretending Mizrachi/Sephardi Jews don't exist? If they are Jews, and considered Falafel a Jewish food, then it's a Jewish food. Get over it, not all Jews are Ashkenazi.

Except that, of course, Karaites have patrilineal descent, so they are only Jewish if somehow it can be ascertained that the matrilineal descent works out So, they might be Jewish, but getting married may be another matter, from what I understand

Anyway, you insist on ignoring the fact that I have never claimed to have any cultural affinity with non-Ashkenazic Jews. As far as I am concerned, Israel in this sense is no different from an attempt to create a Catholic state, by moving the Irish and the Lithuanians ro the vicinity of Rome and making them all speak Latin. I know what my family traditions were. And, most definitely, they did not eat this disgusting thing called falafel. I also know that Palestinian Arabs have been eating falafel since times immemorial. If some of those Palestinian Arabs happen to be of Jewish faith - good for them. But I, actually, do not even share the faith - I am an atheist. What makes those particular Jewish Arabs different from Muslim and Christian Arabs, as far as I should be concerned?

[ag]

tl;dr the 5 pages of argument.

After the congress speech Likud bumped up a bit in polls.

But at the expense of the other right-wing parties. If anything, the polls do not show his coalition-building being any easier.

[ag]

Mikado asked this in the other maps thread but it should be here:

Can there be a stable-for-Israel government out of this election that does not contain both Likud and Labor?  Looking at the numbers, I'm having trouble coming up with a Likud government with over 66ish seats, and a government with 61-65 seats is implausible.

Likud can't invite in the Arabs or the fascists, Meretz won't join, and he can have either the Haredi parties or Yesh Atid but not both. There's no obvious Likud coalition that isn't a grand coalition with Labor plus Kulanu, the Haredi, and Jewish Home and maybe Lieberman.

The "fascists" he can't invite is only Marzel himself, the other members of the party are natural partners of Bibi.

A government with 61-65 may be undesirable, but it is plausible and certainly could be created.

A government with both Lapid and the Haredim would be hard, but not impossible.

A grand coalition is something that I'm sure Bibi would like, but only if they don't demand a rotation, and I suspect that this would be the demand.

The basic coalition for Bibi would be Likud+Bennet+Shas+UTJ+Lieberman+Kachlon+Yachad (not including Marzel). Bibi would like something wider, but he could fall back on this if he must.

Exactly. And, in fact, since the latest polls suggest he might get to 61 without one of the smaller right-wing parties (either Yachad or Lieberman, most likely), he may even have some bargaining power there.

A fine government it will be

[ag]

ag, you forgot to mention the embarrassing embrace of the humsa by Ashkenazis as an integral part of ~the Jewish tradition~. No Birthrite trip is complete without one!

Well, since I do not have any "birthright", I have no clue what that is. In my book, whoever thinks falafel is his ethnic food is an Arab - whatever his/her religion is. We have to have some traditions left, for whoever's sake!

[ag]

I'm not going to go back over the last three pages and critique ag's inane comments word-for-word, like I was doing previously, but I will just note that this conversation began as ag criticizing nationalism (while he is now rejecting certain foods on a nationalistic basis) and has shifted towards ag apparently supporting Ashkenazi traditions -- forgetting that the desire to return to Israel was (in some places, still is), of course, one of the most-treasured and important of these, expressed every year at Passover.

Well, among the important Ashkenazic traditions of recent lore has been devote Marxism. And, even as a convinced bourgeois counterrevolutionary I would not renounce that

[ag]

I'm not going to go back over the last three pages and critique ag's inane comments word-for-word, like I was doing previously, but I will just note that this conversation began as ag criticizing nationalism (while he is now rejecting certain foods on a nationalistic basis) and has shifted towards ag apparently supporting Ashkenazi traditions -- forgetting that the desire to return to Israel was (in some places, still is), of course, one of the most-treasured and important of these, expressed every year at Passover.

Well, among the important Ashkenazic traditions of recent lore has been devote Marxism. And, even as a convinced bourgeois counterrevolutionary I would not renounce that

A trait we share with many groups, though one we've moved away from more than others have. But basically, this is true

Ok, in the spirit of reconciliation that every Jew must feel on this date, Happy Cheyne Stokes Day to all!

[ag]

Isn't there a sub-forum where you could take this rout ? I mean, gee ! This must be the mother of derailing threads, at least for 2015. Well, at least for March 2015.

And nobody even mentioned Palestine ! ^__^

Sorry to everyone! But Jews talking politics tend to go back to the days of the Forefathers.

[ag]

These posts are trash. Move them to the garbage.

Better to international discussion.

Again, apologies for tacking this astray. But, I dare say, trash this is not

[ag]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

lol

Polls since the speech show remarkably little change. Seems like people have decided on the speech before it happened.

[ag]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

lol

Polls since the speech show remarkably little change. Seems like people have decided on the speech before it happened.

It's more that Iran isn't an important issue to most people, so it didn't really matter what he said.

But the point was not so much Iran, as Netanyahu looking "presidential" on TV. I guess, the entire brou-ha-ha took away from that.

[ag]

idiots.

[ag]

This is probably wishful thinking but is there any chance that if the Joint List collapses, Odeh decides to join forces with Meretz? In all honesty I don't know what separates the two.

None whatsoever. They are very far apart.

Joint list will not collapse. Of course, it is quite likely that post-election the constituent parties resume their independent existence. But "joining" in any sense with Meretz is off limits. Except, possibly, temporarily for the next election - and then, again, for the same shotgun threshold reason as they are now joining with the Arabs.

[ag]

Polling by Arutz Sheva from the 8th of March has:

Likud (Netanyahu) at 26 seats
Zionist Union (Herzog) at 21 seats
Jewish Home (Bennet) at 13 seats
Yesh Atid (Lapid) at 12 seats
Joint List (Odeh) at 12 seats
Kulanu (Kachlon) at 8 seats
Shas (Deri) at 8 seats
UTJ (Litzman) at 8 seats
Yisrael Beiteinu (Liberman) at 7 seats
Meretz (Gal-On) at 5 seats
Yachad (Yishai) at 0 seats


I'd obviously take this with a grain of salt as Arutz Sheva is a right-leaning media source.

This poll wasn't done by Arutz Sheva, it was published by i24news, which is not a right wing source. The problem though, is the company actually doing the poll, Geocartograhy, which is trash and regularly gets ridiculous results. you should always ignore Geocartography polls.

During this cycle Geocartography has consistently had the highest numbers for Likud and the lowest for Labor. So, there is an obvious pollster effect here: they may be right of course, but they are an outlier for the moment.