Two Voices

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The crowd says follow us.
The Cross says follow ME.

The crowd says rely on yourself.
The Cross says rely on ME.

The crowd says earn your worth.
The Cross says I AM your worth.

The crowd says bear your burdens.
The Cross says nail them to ME.

The crowd says be happy.
The Cross says be HOLY.

The crowd says if it feels good, do it.
The Cross says for loves’ sake ENDURE it.

The crowd says honor yourself.
The Cross says HUMBLE yourself.

The crowd says do.
The Cross says DONE.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

If the cross said 'be a nasty b-stard' and the crowd said 'no'. I'd follow the crowd

"The Cross says HUMBLE yourself"...which, as I interpret it, means to: “offer yourself in a spirit of deference or submission.”

But your unwillingness to humble yourself to God’s word is the reason why you call yourself a Christian yet arrogantly spout things like:

I don't believe pre-marital sex to be wrong.

I do not and have never claimed that scripture and only scripture is the basis of my morality so why start now.

I think you will find that a sizeable majority of this forum and of society does not have a problem with a loving and stable but unmarried relationship.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Who are you to judge others? Are you yourself God? No, we are no better then anyone else.

Your use of your definition of "judging others" is a bit hypocritical don't you think?...your definition would mean that you're judging me of judging others.

Instead of contradicting yourself with you own misuse of the word, maybe you should pause and realize that POINTING OUT SIN DOES NOT EQUATE TO PASSING JUDGMENT, especially when the pointing out is done to make someone reflect upon their actions.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Don't worry Josh. Jmfcst is a curious sort in that he doesn't like me, yet he seems to be obsessed with everything I have to say.

I don't dislike you, I've just never seen someone so deceived by their sin to claim to be a Christian yet shamelessly and arrogantly disagree with the bible's stance regarding premarital sex.

You are purposely forgetting that God has exalted above all things his name and his word.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

[That's nice now go take your nonexistent gawd and return to your insane asylum room.

Actually, discerning and rejecting contradictions is considered a sign of mental health. 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I never judged you. I stated a fact, that we should not judge others about what they do or say.  Also point out sin and saying you call yourself a Christian, but yet you do this and this. We all sin and we don't need people like you to point them out.

Then how would you, Josh, go about showing Afleitch that he is in the wrong to believe that premarital sex isn't a sin?

"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault" (spoken by Jesus Christ, Mat 18:15)

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You seem to forget that its none of your business what Afleitch believes

Now that is a very strange comment to make on a public internet forum!

Even without the forum, you seem to forget that my conversation with Josh22 and Afleitch is a discussion among those who profess to believe in the message of Christ Jesus, who gave the command to witness to the whole earth.  Therefore, I am not out of line to attempt to reach agreement with them.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

First of all its...

Matt 18: 15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

We, since this forum is pretty anonymous, it is kind of far-fetched to claim I am subjecting Afleitch to public disgrace.  But in that regard, you are forgetting the very next verses:

Mat 18:16-17 But, if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'  17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

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Secondly, give him a bible and tell him where to look. What he does with it is between him and God.

Considering Christ’s instructions were to “tell him” his fault and then to bring more witnesses along if he doesn’t listen, there is absolutely nothing wrong with spelling it out to him.  Obviously the point of the witnesses aren’t to hand him more earmarked bibles.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Also you took that verse out of contexts. Go back and read the whole chapter. It is talking about offending people not people's sins.

I can’t believe you just said that, for someone who touts the King James, you certainly are very confused by its language.  Jesus is clearly talking about things that will send you to hell:

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You see jmfcst. Josh gets it Unlike him, you don't want to reach any agreement. You do no bargaining and reach no agreement. You simply 'troll' the bible.

Josh "gets it"?  The man is incoherent!

Sorry, I don't bargain with the world (the Crowd).  I am not trying to reach agreement with the world.  Rather I am trying to snatch a few member of the Crowd away from the world and turn them to God.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

[Offend means, in this case it is talking about causing you to sin. Also when it is talking about if someone offends you, it means done wrong againts you. I am not stupid. Like I said before, it is not talking about his sins he does in his life.

I am going to say this very plainly:  In your case, for some reason, THE OLD ENGLISH OF THE KING JAMES VERSION IS INCOHERENT TO YOU, for even though Jesus was speaking about your foot and eye “enticing” you into sin, by the time he reaches 18:15, he is clearly speaking directly about “sin” itself and is NO LONGER EVEN USING THE SAME WORD.

The Greek word used in Mat 18:6, Mat 18:8, and Mat 18:9: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4624&version=kjv

Mt 18:6  
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mt 18:8  
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 18:9  
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

A DIFFERENT Greek word used in Mat 18:15 and Mat 18:21
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=mt&number=264&count=3&version=kjv

Mat 18:15  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.  

Mt 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

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Jesus’ instruction in Mat 18:22 to forgive others of their sins countless times is one of his most famous quotes, and it is UNIVERSALLY understood to be referring directly to sin and not simply enticement.

The word you're questioning in Mat 18:15 is the EXACT word used in Mat 18:21.  That same exact word is used 35 other times in the New Testament (see link above) and each and every time it is referring directly to sin itself.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

What makes the NIV better then KJV?

It's not, IMO the KJV is a more accurate translation (except for notable exceptions like "Easter" in Acts 12:4).

I really like the NKJV, but it would be a lot easier to read if it were in paragraph form and had subtitles like the NIV. 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Jmfcst has always struck me as the kind of guy that not only would you not want to enjoy a beer with, but would be the guy who sits outside the bar screaming about how we should all be burned at the stake.

Actually, I just had two beers tonight.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Jmfcst has always struck me as the kind of guy that not only would you not want to enjoy a beer with, but would be the guy who sits outside the bar screaming about how we should all be burned at the stake.

Actually, I just had two beers tonight.

I never said that you don't drink; just that sharing one with you would be about as fun as having my liver yanked out and fed to me.

no, you said I would be outside the bar screaming at those inside

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Well, there's always Matt 7:3-5

Was John the Baptist violating Mat 7:3-5 when he told the crowds the following in Luke 3:7: ""You brood of vipers!"??

Was Stephen violating Mat 7:3-5 when he told the following to the Sanhedrin in Acts 7:51: "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"??

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though I suppose in this case that giant redwood is near unmovable.

To which sin of mine are you referring?

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Of course, it is a free nation, and if someone wants to dogmatically follow the teachings of John Darby, ignoring centuries of history, culture, and theology they are free to do so

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Jmfcst has always struck me as the kind of guy that not only would you not want to enjoy a beer with, but would be the guy who sits outside the bar screaming about how we should all be burned at the stake.

Actually, I just had two beers tonight.

HAHA, ok now you can stop talking to me.

Why?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

no, you said I would be outside the bar screaming at those inside

You're proving my point here, you know.

yes, you are illogical. 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

How can you preach to others, but yet drink?

Yes, I preach against drunkenness, yet I drink in moderation. (I had two beers in a two hour span, that is NOT enough to make me drunk since I weigh approx 185 lbs.)

I also preach against gluttony, yet I eat in moderation.  (I am 6 feet tall and weight 185 lbs.) 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Yes, I preach against drunkenness, yet I drink in moderation.

Why do you feel it's fine to drink in moderation yet it's immoral to smoke marijuana in moderation?

1) smoking Marijuana is illegal, therefore it would be a sin for me to smoke pot anywhere it is illegal.
2) even if it was legal, from my experience, taking a couple of puffs off a joint got me pretty "high".  So for me, it would be a sin even if it was legal.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

1) smoking Marijuana is illegal, therefore it would be a sin for me to smoke pot anywhere it is illegal.

Would it have been a sin for you to read the bible in communist Albania circa 1970?

The commands of God trump the commands of man, therefore I could break that man made law and read the bible with a clear conscience.  But, God did not require me to drink alcohol or smoke pot; therefore, I am under commandment of God to obey the man-made laws in regard to alcohol or pot.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The commands of God trump the commands of man, therefore I could break that man made law and read the bible with a clear conscience.  But, God did not require me to drink alcohol or smoke pot; therefore, I am under commandment of God to obey the man-made laws in regard to alcohol or pot.

god does speak of drunkenness.

Yes he does, so if the government passed a law requiring everyone to get drunk, then I would be sinning if I obeyed the law of the government.

As it stands today, the government allows me to consume alcohol, but God commands me not to get drunk.  Therefore, knowing my own tolerance, I drink in moderation and set limits on myself.

Same goes for gluttony - the bible speaks against it, so I eat in moderation, but I don't stop eating altogether.
 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Therefore, knowing my own tolerance, I drink in moderation and set limits on myself.

Out of interest, how did you discover your own tolerance level?

Isn’t that common sense?

If I catch a buzz, I've had too much.  If my equilibrium is affected, or if my speech starts to slur, I’ve definitely had too much.  If my inhibitions are affected, I’ve had way too much.

For me a buzz would occur if I drink three beers within the first hour and half.  So I limit my drinking limit to 3 drinks or 1 drink per hour, whichever is the greatest. 

Example, if I were on a 10 hour fishing trip, I could conceivably consume 10 beers, one per hour.  But, since it is extremely rare that I would be drinking more than a couple of beers, I don’t attempt to control the rate at which I drink them since I am only having two.

If I am drinking something unfamiliar (unsure of the alcoholic content), then I would naturally drink slowly and stop as soon as I feel the calming effect, which for me, is a safe distance away from catching a buzz.

But, again, I believe this is common sense and it doesn’t take a genius to figure out how to drink in moderation.  For most people, getting drunk requires a conscious effort.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Is it just me, or has auld JMF become a parody of himself?

To some extent, but in other cases he's gone just plain wacky, such as in defending adulterers.

Obviously, I have never defended adulterers.  Rather, I simply pointed out that the spouse, in a lot of cases, wasn't fulfilling their marriage vows.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

He is one of them people who like to use the bible to make himself look good, but make others look bad.

I am still waiting for you to cite one example where I apply a certain passage to others but not myself.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Well I've said it before, so I'll say it again.  Sharing a few beers with you would be about as fun as Chinese water torture.

Well, bud, if you can't accept the fact that those drinking with you are only going to have two drinks before stopping, then you have a serious problem.