Israel-Gaza war

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Here is my plans for a final peace settlement (I am a Palestinian American)

1. Israel withdraws from 97% of West Bank (Ehud Olmert's 2008 Annapolis plan)

2. Highway connects West Bank and Gaza Strip

3. Jerusalem remains the undivided and fully controlled by Israel

4. Palestine government buildings operate in East Jerusalem

5. Arab residents in East Jerusalem allowed both Israeli and Palestinian citizenship

6. Palestine becomes the custodian of Al Aqsa Mosque (currently Jordanian government)

7. "Right of Return" is dropped except for the original survivors of the 1947 Nakba

8. A limited number of Palestinian refugees globally will be allowed to settle in West Bank. The rest are given citizenship of their home nations.

9. Hamas is banned as a political party. Any party that promotes violence is banned, similar to Israeli laws

10. Palestine will control its water and power

11. Israeli will be allowed to control airspace over Palestine. In exchange, the airport in Gaza City is reopened and a new airport built in West Bank

12. Israel will be allowed a limited military presence on Jordan border

Thoughts?

I think most of this is fine in and of itself (as you yourself note, it's quite similar to the 2008 Annapolis plan), but the thing that's missing is the context of the societies agreeing to this deal. (The note about Israel continuing to control Palestinian airspace suggests you don't envision either society changing radically). I don't think there can actually be a peace until a variation of Palestinian nationalism emerges which is not anti-Zionist; which does not seek to conquer Israel or change its immigration policies.

I have to agree. Plainly, in a lasting peace, no one side is getting everything it wants. You know it's a good compromise if someone is unhappy with it. Zionism is the founding principle of Israel, Palestinians are shooting too high if they're seeking to force Jews to give it up wholesale. Ben Gvir or Smotrich style Zionism is off the table, but that doesn't mean that it's fair, or just, to force Israelis to just gove it up completely.
The Palestinian obsession with Mandatory Palestine is the function of them having nothing else to work towards. We saw signs of compromise until Barak left, after that it just went completely downhill and we ended up where we were now.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Here is my plans for a final peace settlement (I am a Palestinian American)

1. Israel withdraws from 97% of West Bank (Ehud Olmert's 2008 Annapolis plan)

2. Highway connects West Bank and Gaza Strip

3. Jerusalem remains the undivided and fully controlled by Israel

4. Palestine government buildings operate in East Jerusalem

5. Arab residents in East Jerusalem allowed both Israeli and Palestinian citizenship

6. Palestine becomes the custodian of Al Aqsa Mosque (currently Jordanian government)

7. "Right of Return" is dropped except for the original survivors of the 1947 Nakba

8. A limited number of Palestinian refugees globally will be allowed to settle in West Bank. The rest are given citizenship of their home nations.

9. Hamas is banned as a political party. Any party that promotes violence is banned, similar to Israeli laws

10. Palestine will control its water and power

11. Israeli will be allowed to control airspace over Palestine. In exchange, the airport in Gaza City is reopened and a new airport built in West Bank

12. Israel will be allowed a limited military presence on Jordan border

Thoughts?

I think most of this is fine in and of itself (as you yourself note, it's quite similar to the 2008 Annapolis plan), but the thing that's missing is the context of the societies agreeing to this deal. (The note about Israel continuing to control Palestinian airspace suggests you don't envision either society changing radically). I don't think there can actually be a peace until a variation of Palestinian nationalism emerges which is not anti-Zionist; which does not seek to conquer Israel or change its immigration policies.

I have to agree. Plainly, in a lasting peace, no one side is getting everything it wants. You know it's a good compromise if someone is unhappy with it. Zionism is the founding principle of Israel, Palestinians are shooting too high if they're seeking to force Jews to give it up wholesale. Ben Gvir or Smotrich style Zionism is off the table, but that doesn't mean that it's fair, or just, to force Israelis to just gove it up completely.
The Palestinian obsession with Mandatory Palestine is the function of them having nothing else to work towards. We saw signs of compromise until Barak left, after that it just went completely downhill and we ended up where we were now.

I don't get the obsession with folks on this forum about forcing Palestinians to be anti-Zionist? Thats like asking Native Americans to stop being anti "white take our land".

Palestinians are never going to be ok with European Jews coming in the 1930s-1940s and settling in Mandatory Palestine. Native Americans are never going to be ok with being forced form their land onto reservations.

But hard feelings doesn't stop people from accepting things and working towards improving their situation

Oh, I wasn't suggesting forcing Palestinians to be pro-Zionist. I was suggesting not forcing Jews to be anti-Zionist. I doubt that you'd very easily get Palestinians and Israelis on the same page values-wise, anymore than you could easily get Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley to view the British monarchy the exact same way.
Time can heal wounds. But wounds repeatedly battered don't get the chance to heal.
Banning parties advocating violence is a good idea for a future Palestinian entity btw, props for that. Innovative thinking will be needed to untie this quadi-Gordian knot.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

snip

These people cannot be left to their own devices. They're off their rockers.
Thank god the population wants them out, if polls are any indication.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

One concern I have is about the potential radicalization of southern Gaza.  If one uses the 2006 elections to argue many Palestinians support Hamas*, then one must also acknowledge that southern Gaza (ex: Khan Yunis and especially Rafah) was one of the core areas of opposition to Hamas in the election.  The majority of folks in the southern half of Gaza quite clearly rejected what Hamas was selling and wanted nothing to do with them in that elections.  

The area would be critical for anti-Hamas/non-violent Palestinian party in Gaza and I worry that if Israel handles the area the way it has Gaza City (where Hamas seemingly enjoyed very enthusiastic support in 2006), it will cost the world generations of would-be anti-terrorist Palestinians in the area.  Palestinian civilians who think of Israel as something other than hellfire and death falling from the sky have to come from somewhere in both Gaza and the West Bank.

*As I have said elsewhere, I strongly oppose using 2006 as evidence Palestinians support Hamas.  Hamas worked very hard in that election to rebrand themselves domestically by marketing themselves to Palestinian voters as a pro-democracy party that had essentially matured out of non-self-defense violence/civilian-targeted terrorism (almost as if they thought most Palestinians opposed and would not vote for terrorism or totalitarianism when presented with another option).  Instead, Hamas focused heavily on attacking corruption by Fatah and marketing itself as a good government alternative of sorts.  Very different from how they behaved once they gained power (and to be clear, I am only talking about how they marketed themselves to Palestinians, as opposed to the international community).

Even so, the popular vote was only a narrow Hamas plurality.  The real Hamas landslide came from the district seats.  No one knew how the district lines would play out and it turned out that Hamas’ vote distribution meant that they wildly over-performed in these districts which became the functional equivalent of a completely unintentional pro-Hamas gerrymander.  The maximized their district seats in their strongholds and even won most of the district seats in swingy or outright Fatah-leaning areas.  IIRC the overall popular vote was a narrow Hamas win and certainly not anything resembling a clear mandate.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know this.
It's also worth noting that Hamas was facing protests in Gaza before October 7th happened. Even news stories such as some Israeli soldiers forcing Palestinian women to go naked didn't seem to really register in Gaza specifically remotely as some of the discontent people had under Hamas rule.
But what can ordinary people do against an armed gang with strong outside backing? Not too much. Notwithstanding this, Hamas' situation in Gaza was perhaps quite a bit more perilous than people outside realized.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I dont think the people of Gaza are capable of overthrowing Hamas but it is interesting that protests are a regular occurrence in Iran despite heavy usage of executions but not in Gaza.

Because anger towards Israel is MUCH stronger than Hamas

The Israeli operation is to destroy Hamas.  It was universally recognized within about five seconds of the 10/7 news breaking that this would be Israel's objective.  Sorry it's taking longer than you expected.  Maybe if the Gazans were willing to help Israel out it would go quicker.

After all, allegedly they want to get rid of Hamas even more badly than Israel does, right?

But it's just been too hard for the last sixteen years.  Otherwise they totally would have.  But it's just so difficult.  So why even try.

Much more difficult than, say, the French Resistance.  What are the Nazis compared to the might of Hamas?

And it's not like an anti-Hamas resistance movement would be able to get support from, say, Israel or America or the EU or, heck, Fatah.  Or ISIS, who also hate Hamas and declared war on them six years ago.

The truth is that even the Gazans who oppose Hamas are more upset about the decline of living conditions under Hamas rule than they are about Hamas's obsession with killing Jewish civilians (which they by-and-large support).  That anti-Hamas protest I mentioned earlier this year?  It was because Qatar used to pay a monthly stipend to Gazan families, and Hamas started taxing that stipend so they could send the money back to Qatar for Ismail Haniyeh to use on more tributes to his Telegram findomme.  That's what the Gazans were upset about -- not the missile attacks, not the suicide bombings, not the kidnappings.

If Hamas were able to competently administer Gaza but otherwise maintain their fanatical extremist ideology and obsession with killing innocent Jews at all costs, I'd be willing to bet their approvals would be 80-90%.

The French Resistance had support from the allies. Its also important to note, Netanyahu's government secretly supported Hamas. Nice little excuse to avoid two state negotiations.

The fact that Fatah exists as a rival political group shows that not all Palestinians support violence. Fatah and Gaza had a literal civil war in 2006.

Like I said, the average person in Gaza doesn't care for Hamas. Hamas closed movie theaters and concerts. Like I said, the average person doesn't outright oppose Hamas. Not caring for someone isn't an excuse to rise up in violence. Rise up against a Iran armed proxy.

I have family in the Fatah controlled West Bank. NO ONE wants Hamas to take over the West Bank. People enjoy their movies and concerts and not having to wear hajib

The way I look at it, there's no unified Palestinian political grouping. There's four segments, to oversimplify a bit. 1) Hamas 2) Fatah/PA govt 3) non-Hamas non-Fatah 4) misc
if you broaden it to include Arab Israelis you could add them as a fifth grouping.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Highly disturbing developments coming out of Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/13/it-is-a-time-of-witch-hunts-in-israel-teacher-held-in-solitary-confinement-for-posting-concern-about-gaza-deaths

An unlikely charge of intent to commit treason landed Meir Baruchin, a grey-haired, softly spoken history and civics teacher, in the solitary confinement wing of Jerusalem’s notorious “Russian Compound” prison in early November.

The evidence compiled by police who handcuffed him, then drove to his apartment and ransacked it as he watched, was a series of Facebook posts he’d made, mourning the civilians killed in Gaza, criticising the Israeli military, and warning against wars of revenge.

“Horrific images are pouring in from Gaza. Entire families were wiped out. I don’t usually upload pictures like this, but look what we do in revenge,” said a message on 8 October, below a picture of the family of Abu Daqqa, killed in one of the first airstrikes on Gaza. “Anyone who thinks this is justified because of what happened yesterday, should unfriend themselves. I ask everyone else to do everything possible to stop this madness. Stop it now. Not later, Now!!!”

Ten days after that Facebook message, he was fired from his teaching job in Petach Tikvah municipality. Less than a month later he was in a high-security jail, detained to give police more time to investigate critical views he had never tried to hide.

He was interrogated again before a second judge ordered his release. Questioners told him his posts were like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, among the most famously antisemitic documents in the world. “I’m a history teacher, so I asked, ‘Did you ever read them?’ They didn’t respond.”

When his name is clear, Baruchin plans to sue Israeli media who reported police charges without asking for his response or looking for evidence, and accused him of justifying and legitimising Hamas.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Highly disturbing developments coming out of Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/13/it-is-a-time-of-witch-hunts-in-israel-teacher-held-in-solitary-confinement-for-posting-concern-about-gaza-deaths

An unlikely charge of intent to commit treason landed Meir Baruchin, a grey-haired, softly spoken history and civics teacher, in the solitary confinement wing of Jerusalem’s notorious “Russian Compound” prison in early November.

The evidence compiled by police who handcuffed him, then drove to his apartment and ransacked it as he watched, was a series of Facebook posts he’d made, mourning the civilians killed in Gaza, criticising the Israeli military, and warning against wars of revenge.

“Horrific images are pouring in from Gaza. Entire families were wiped out. I don’t usually upload pictures like this, but look what we do in revenge,” said a message on 8 October, below a picture of the family of Abu Daqqa, killed in one of the first airstrikes on Gaza. “Anyone who thinks this is justified because of what happened yesterday, should unfriend themselves. I ask everyone else to do everything possible to stop this madness. Stop it now. Not later, Now!!!”

Ten days after that Facebook message, he was fired from his teaching job in Petach Tikvah municipality. Less than a month later he was in a high-security jail, detained to give police more time to investigate critical views he had never tried to hide.

He was interrogated again before a second judge ordered his release. Questioners told him his posts were like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, among the most famously antisemitic documents in the world. “I’m a history teacher, so I asked, ‘Did you ever read them?’ They didn’t respond.”

When his name is clear, Baruchin plans to sue Israeli media who reported police charges without asking for his response or looking for evidence, and accused him of justifying and legitimising Hamas.

Only Democracy in the Middle East^TM

That talking point deserves to be shredded, yes. Israel is a fairly typical Middle Eastern country whether or not the people there or elsewhere would hate to acknowledge it.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

So now we're acting surprised that some of the poorest people in the world are concerned about their living standards, rather than the safety of the civilians of the country blockading them?

And this is another example of Palestinians being held to a standard Israelis are not. It's obvious from Israeli media coverage that many Israeli civilians who do live comfortable lives have little to no compassion for some of the most desperate people in the world.

US HDI: 0.921
Israel HDI: 0.919
Cuba HDI: 0.764
Mexico HDI: 0.758
Libya HDI: 0.718
Palestinian HDI: 0.715
Gaza HDI: 0.699 (Philippines is the same)

The data speaks for itself.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Highly disturbing developments coming out of Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/13/it-is-a-time-of-witch-hunts-in-israel-teacher-held-in-solitary-confinement-for-posting-concern-about-gaza-deaths

An unlikely charge of intent to commit treason landed Meir Baruchin, a grey-haired, softly spoken history and civics teacher, in the solitary confinement wing of Jerusalem’s notorious “Russian Compound” prison in early November.

The evidence compiled by police who handcuffed him, then drove to his apartment and ransacked it as he watched, was a series of Facebook posts he’d made, mourning the civilians killed in Gaza, criticising the Israeli military, and warning against wars of revenge.

“Horrific images are pouring in from Gaza. Entire families were wiped out. I don’t usually upload pictures like this, but look what we do in revenge,” said a message on 8 October, below a picture of the family of Abu Daqqa, killed in one of the first airstrikes on Gaza. “Anyone who thinks this is justified because of what happened yesterday, should unfriend themselves. I ask everyone else to do everything possible to stop this madness. Stop it now. Not later, Now!!!”

Ten days after that Facebook message, he was fired from his teaching job in Petach Tikvah municipality. Less than a month later he was in a high-security jail, detained to give police more time to investigate critical views he had never tried to hide.

He was interrogated again before a second judge ordered his release. Questioners told him his posts were like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, among the most famously antisemitic documents in the world. “I’m a history teacher, so I asked, ‘Did you ever read them?’ They didn’t respond.”

When his name is clear, Baruchin plans to sue Israeli media who reported police charges without asking for his response or looking for evidence, and accused him of justifying and legitimising Hamas.

Only Democracy in the Middle East^TM

That talking point deserves to be shredded, yes. Israel is a fairly typical Middle Eastern country whether or not the people there or elsewhere would hate to acknowledge it.

Imagine actually believing this

The people *currently* in charge of Israel see democracy as an inconvenience at best.

Look at who Bibi's mates are - Putin, Orban, Trump. By their friends ye shall know them.

And yet an Israel that has been led by Bibi for so long is still a million times more free, more democratic, and more equal than any of its neighbors.

That's debatable at this point. His attempts at reforming the Supreme Court showed exactly the sort of nation he wants Israel to be. He has no interest in democracy and I would bet my life he sees it as something to be removed rather than maintained.

The man wants to be a dictator.

Sorry, if you reduced the power of a Supreme Court to zero you make the country more democratic, not less.  Unlimited, unfettered Democracy might not be a good idea, but that is exactly what it would be. The will of the electorate would always prevail [regardless of what the law, or Constitution says.]

Indeed, America's Founding Fathers understood the dangers of unchecked democracy. Even Switzerland doesn't have completely unchecked citizen referenda.
Bibi wants a more radically democratic Israel where his Periphery Jewish voter base (which already had a demographic majority) gets its way over Arabs and other groups. The overhaul was a step in that direction.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

It's hard to see any lasting resolution occur without outside pressure. Excess and killing on both sides is enabled by team politics where people will stand up for members of their "side" no matter how awful they are. Peace is either forced on a population unwilling to accept compromise or reached consensually. The latter is much better than the former, but if things degenerate, the former might become necessary.
In Northern Ireland the latter was miraculously achieved. Can that happen here? Not until the wings of extremists on both sides get clipped.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Hamas have released propaganda denying atrocities on October 7:

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-783233

Whether, or not, the document is "propaganda," however you define it, it makes a series of claims that are either true, somewhat true, somewhat false, or false.

Where babies capitated? If so, in what number?

How many women were raped?

Did the Israeli military fire on the path of the invasion that included its own civilians?

Is there, or is there not, a "Hannible Directive" to preference killing Israelis rather than allowing them to fall into captivity?

These questions should be answered, and not a priori dismissed as "propaganda."

Yes, exactly. Israel shouldn't fear the truth. We already know Hamas  committed atrocious things on October 7th. For sake of transparency it'd be beneficial if we knew exactly how atrocious those acts were. And Israel definitely can't be trusted to be 100% honest about these things. Neither can Hamas.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-23/israel-says-21-soldiers-killed-in-gaza-in-worst-single-day-toll

"Israel Says 21 Soldiers Killed in Gaza in Worst Single-Day Toll"

Did anything big happen today?
EDIT: wow, what a case of hoist by one's own petard

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-23/israel-says-21-soldiers-killed-in-gaza-in-worst-single-day-toll

"Israel Says 21 Soldiers Killed in Gaza in Worst Single-Day Toll"

Did anything big happen today?
EDIT: wow, what a case of hoist by one's own petard

Booby trapped building blew up while IDF reservists were in it.

You can see on this day by day KIA count how devastating it was.

Ouch.
It seems the Israelis aren't making too big news of this though?
I wonder if this is just seen as operationally embarassing.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Clearly Israel’s tactics are above reproach, I mean only an anti-Semitic terrorist lover would be upset with this
https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1749917499330617805?s=12

Israeli authorities be like: if you disagree with us shooting unarmed Palestinian men you're anti-Semitic

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Israeli authorities be like: if you disagree with us shooting unarmed Palestinian men you're anti-Semitic

Do you have a citation for any Israeli authorities saying that?

I think you missed the point of my post. Which was to harshly mock them for bringing up inanities to deflect from systematic anti-Palestinian violence and disempower Palestinians from having any real human rights.
Have you been following what Israel's ambassador to your country has been saying about people in Gaza? By any chance?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

If Israel hates the UNRWA so much then it needs to take on its responsibilities likewise, without discrimination and in a way the locals can actually trust. The beleaguered civilians of Gaza, who have been shot in their churches, bombed to death, and casually mistreated by the Israeli military, deserve nothing less.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Wilders did not win a landslide, and it cannot be attributed solely on this issue

Maybe not even mainly?

I think it was a pretty salient issue and Dutch electorates have reacted to such things in the past (Rutte-Turkey controversy).

I don't doubt it was indeed a significant factor that boosted Wilders support, but ahead of his bread and butter issues of immigration/Islamism more generally?

FvD helped Wilders a lot because it made him look saner. The shifts in climate from 2021 also very probably helped him.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

No, it is not when those hospitals are used for military purposes; I have already provided the citation and can go hunt it down again if you like. If this war were being carried out in a just and reasonable way, then on the first day all 192 countries on Earth would've collaborated to level every hospital in Gaza (which I believe I was calling for in the first week; I can go find the quote if you like).

Weird deflection because the hospital wasn't being used for military purposes, it was being used as a hospital. Again, one of the "terrorists" was there because he was in a literal coma.

You have the moral code of Atilla the Hun and I don't particularly care whether or not Atilla the Hun thinks the IDF is committing war crimes. The relevant standard is the one laid out by the Geneva Convention and by that standard the IDF has crossed the line a thousand times over.

By the standard of the Geneva Conventions Israel has been absurdly careful. As I have mentioned before the Geneva Conventions not merely permit but basically flat-out endorse the destruction of hospitals used for military purposes by an enemy; I have never once advocated for Israel to take an action forbidden by them, because so long as you have intelligence that they are used for military purposes -- this was published by the absurdly pro-Palestinian press in 2014 and has been known for much longer -- then of course you are permitted to destroy them. The scandal here, as I've said before, is that other countries did not join Israel in destroying Gaza, when it is so clearly in the entire world's interests for that to happen.

I remain the only poster in this thread citing actual passages of the actual Geneva Conventions, and the reason for that is that merely skimming them reveals that they are not intended to punish far more intense offensives than the one Israel has actually conducted.

I have had to correct people IRL about the legality or lack thereof of what Israel's doing.
Just two days ago: "Legal doesn't mean moral". The person on the other end just shut down and terminated the conversation.
Unfortunately minds will be hard to change on this.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Belgium continues funding UNWRA. Good that we don't buy this propaganda. There was a vote today and continuing to fund passed.

Good.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

No one enters the West Bank without Israel permission. I happen to be a Palestinian American who has traveled to the West Bank. BTW Fatah is the group choosen by Israel to lead the West Bank. The IDF collects taxes for them!

The same group chosen by Israel to lead the West Bank? The same group the IDF collects taxes for?

The last Palestinian election was in 2006. The majority of the Gaza Strip was born after this election

Hamas only won a pluraity, not a majority. And they did not run on a violence platform back in 2006 either

The fact that the Israeli government collaborates with Fatah out of convenience doesn't make Fatah any less fundamentally evil. How do you think the international community would react if Israel were to institute a policy that any settler who kills a Palestinian civilian will not only never face any legal consequences but will also receive a lifetime pension from the Israeli government as a reward for doing so? It would obviously be described as a genocidal/fascist policy and correctly so.

And yet does any relevant Palestinian party openly oppose pay to slay? Fatah and Hamas both openly back it. An overwhelming majority of votes in the 2006 election were for fascist parties. It wouldn't even surprise me if it were 100%.

When was the last time any settlers faced legal consequences for violating the law?

Settlers are coddled. Prove me wrong.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

IDF is saying they've confirmed 32 of the hostages are dead. I guess now they will level the 25% of buildings in Gaza that still stand.

A shame, given their real record in building up Gaza up until the 80s, that they've chosen as their mantra, "Gaza delenda est".

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

If sanity does not reign in the state of Israel, we will eventually have to rein in the state of Israel.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

If you are Israel, every single soldier must behave in a manner 100% ethical and mistake-free 100% of the time or else the entire war is wicked and unjustified.

If you are Hamas, any unethical act, or even intentional (not mistaken or unavoidable) infliction of cruelty and harm upon civilians is justified and good because it's fighting against Israel, who as already mentioned, are indefensibly wicked.

When we say "ethical and mistake-free" we are not referring to the typical rules of war, wherein the usage human shields and civilian population areas for military purposes incurs responsibility for harm/death upon the defending party, not the attacker, but rather wholly new rules of war that we invented specifically to apply solely to Israel, and will change on the fly  to match with whatever Israel just did.

BTW even if Israel somehow manages to follow our made-up rules we will simply lie about what Israel did, or totally make things up, or post pics/videos from Syria and say they're from Gaza, etc.

Long live the glorious struggle of Hamas the Palestinians against the disgusting, vile, wretched Jews Zionists!

There are Tiktok videos showing Israeli soldiers gleefully blowing up mosques. Are you suggesting they are being fabricated?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

There are Tiktok videos showing Israeli soldiers gleefully blowing up mosques. Are you suggesting they are being fabricated?

Yes, I've seen that video of the one idiot soldier.  Is there any evidence that this is the official policy of the IDF?  Is there any evidence that what the soldier says in the video ("I'm going to blow up the mosque because they wouldn't let me say prayers in it") is the actual reason for the mosque being blown up as opposed to him just being a jackass or trying to joke around with his buddies?  Typically a random grunt flipping the switch on a demolition would not be the same guy who made the strategic decision to authorize the demolition, and would not have had any input on the actual reason for doing said demolition.

As far as I can tell literally the only thing we know about this incident is a TikTok video from some random grunt dicking around and making some stupid claim to impress his buddies.  This is exactly what I'm talking about.  We're asked to judge the entire Israeli war effort based on the dumbest TikTok videos posted by individual knucklehead soldiers.  I mean imagine how bad other wars would've been if every soldier was equipped with a camera they used to broadcast their day-to-day soldiering to the world.

You know that scene in Saving Private Ryan where the Germans run out of the bunker, try to surrender, and the American GIs say "what?  I don't speak German" and gun them down while laughing?  Imagine if they were videotaping that for their TikTok to try and get likes from their buddies, and then Al Jazeera reposted it and 100,000,000 people worldwide saw it and people started acting like it was reflective of the entire American war effort.  Saying vague things like "Americans are gunning down surrendering Germans, not taking any prisoners, it's a war crime, they are engaging in anti-German genocide" -- implying this is the official policy of the entire American army, rather than just two soldiers being idiots.  That would basically be the equivalent of how we're still talking about the "IDF soldier shoots three guys waving the white flag" story.  Is it official IDF policy to shoot anyone waving the white flag?  Or was this just one soldier being an idiot?  If the latter, is there literally any reason to talk about this incident other than to try and imply that it's reflective of the entire IDF?

I hate to break it to you but in every army throughout the world across the course of history, there have always been idiot soldiers.  Having a handful of idiots in your army does not make your entire army unethical or your war unjustified.  It does not make their actions reflective of military or state policy -- even if they can give that appearance by using TikTok to broadcast their dumbest moments to billions of people around the world, getting 100x as many likes/views/reposts as your official army press conferences.


P.S. and by the way -- needless to say -- if Hamas guys had TikTok and were going down in their tunnels abusing and raping their prisoners and posting it up on TikTok, this war would look very different.  Thank heavens we don't have to see Hamas in their lowest moments broadcast all across the world.  We got a little taste of that on 10/7 and it was one of the most vile things in human history.

I wouldn't judge the IDF just by the behavior of a few personnel or a squad. But it's evident that there's a real and impossible-to-hide campaign to destroy what the people of Gaza value, to make it unfriendly and unsafe, that includes mass-scale permission for the worst abuses to go unchecked. And those abuses include targetting things that are seen as belonging to "the enemy". A-OK to blow up a mosque, apparently...who cares? They could be mass raping thousands of Gazan woman in their homes every day and it wouldn't matter, because of October 7th...which really was them for the first time in a long time that the humanitarian abuses the Israelis did and still do against Palestinians were done in large scale on Israelis for many years.

The Israeli military has a right to exist. Israel has a right to defend itself. But what's going on is effectively a Rape of Gaza. And unlike the past, when Israeli built up a lot of infrastructure for Palestinians (to their credit), any gains they make in this war will likely turn into a campaign to remove any Arabness out and push a Jewish-only Holy Land, as Israeli politics has gotten more deranged than in the past.

Up to 70-75% of what's there in Gaza is now demolished. And for what? I've always stressed IRL that October 7th remains a vile act. But at this point, what's being done in Gaza is downright counterproductive to the security of the state of Israel and unlike most on both sides I value Palestinian and Israeli lives equally. The only people here at real risk of mass-scale ethnic cleansing is the Arabs. The only who are capable of the kinds of acts many people in the Hamas networks dream of doing, is in fact the Israeli government and its supporters among the electorate, who want a powerless serf population and all the best pickings of land for themselves.

May God save them by pulling them away from the brink, before they can bring down themselves. The last thing we need is more human misery.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://twitter.com/GailSimone/status/1757108015423963386
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1756990510487449645

Hamas is not a credible source

Why has the IDF considered, and rejected, the idea of not using their data then?