German Federal Election 2017

[Intell]

Switching my support to SPD, as I've gotten broadly more pro-european.

[Intell]

Didn't we have a similar poll fairly recently and didn't it show that Atlas is apparently pretty similar to a state in East Germany like Saxony-Anhalt (= strong result for both AfD and Left)?

I don't remember, but wouldn't surprise me.

[Intell]

I have the impression, that the greens have a large faction that's economically centre-right and very socially liberal, a greener version of the FDP. The politics that green parties represent is anathema to me, as a leftist (my version of leftism anyway).

So ranking the parties;

(Excellent)

1. Left

(Acceptable in a good way)

2. SPD
3. Pirates

(Random Parties Galore)

4. Die PARTEI
5. Free Voters

(Awful Choices to come)

6. CDU/CSU
7. Greens

(Vomit)

8. FDP
9. AfD
10. Liberal Conservative Reformers   


(Die In Trash nazis please)

11. NPD

[Intell]

I have the impression, that the greens have a large faction that's economically centre-right and very socially liberal, a greener version of the FDP. The politics that green parties represent is anathema to me, as a leftist (my version of leftism anyway).

I'd say that the "right" wing of the Greens is in no way more right-wing than the "right" wing of the SPD.

In my experience however, leftists tend to be more pissed about the Greens' "right wing" because they expect the Greens to be generally more left-wing than the SPD and consider it a betrayal of leftism that they're in fact not.

A classic example: The SPD is certainly forming coalitions with the CDU more frequently than the Greens do with the CDU. However, the latter are usually getting more flak for it from the left.

So in essence, the Greens are often considered more right-wing than they actually are because they're not as left-wing as it is  "expected" from them.

Platform-wise, SPD and Greens have been largely identical for quite some time now. Differences exist in emphasis rather than actual policy. The SPD's emphasis lies on social justice, and the Greens emphasis lies on ecology. That doesn't mean however that the SPD isn't pro-environment and neither does it mean that the Greens aren't pro-social justice.

I think for me, it's the fact the greens have to tie to workers/labour unions the SPD do, which keeps them on their toes. SPD still has an impression of being a working class party, and party for labour, while the greens (around the world), are seen as elitst, self-entitled middle-class party of the burgoise, the right-wing faction of the party doesn't help with that. This image, rightly or wrongly, is anathema to me.

The greens also don't have a platform of "socialism" in anyway (how little the SPD does is a different question), but they don't have class poltics, or working class politics in the green party, which is why I dislike green parties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiq-YI42n3Y


3:39, represent a lot of my views (if it's translated well)

[Intell]

any new-rightie culturalist supporting the AfD should be wary of the strong, austrian-like, "old-school-racist-right" elements in the east.

I'd say the racism in eastern Germany is more alike to Eastern European racism (Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary). Anti-pluralist and anti-globalist notions which are the result of 40 years of Communist totalitarianism.

It's ironic for a nominally "internationalist" ideology like Communism, but compared to West Germany the borders were tightly closed in East Germany and the government's rethoric also tended to be significantly more nationalist. But I guess authoritarianism remains authoritarianism, no matter under which political "colour".

I mean the growth of AfD in the east is due to the failures of unification on a west-dominated capitalist establishment, which left East Germany closed. As are the reasons why far-right parties are higher in former communist countries, due to stupid decisions carried out, on the basis on american neoliberal economists (carried out by both left and right), ruining the social aspect of the country, it's concepts of solidarity, reducing money to highest common factor, and letting a signifiant proportion of the country die, leaving them poor, while reducing the standard of living for many east europeans

You're from the east germany? No? Do you agree or disagree with me?.

[Intell]

any new-rightie culturalist supporting the AfD should be wary of the strong, austrian-like, "old-school-racist-right" elements in the east.

I'd say the racism in eastern Germany is more alike to Eastern European racism (Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary). Anti-pluralist and anti-globalist notions which are the result of 40 years of Communist totalitarianism.

It's ironic for a nominally "internationalist" ideology like Communism, but compared to West Germany the borders were tightly closed in East Germany and the government's rethoric also tended to be significantly more nationalist. But I guess authoritarianism remains authoritarianism, no matter under which political "colour".

I mean the growth of AfD in the east is due to the failures of unification on a west-dominated capitalist establishment, which left East Germany closed. As are the reasons why far-right parties are higher in former communist countries, due to stupid decisions carried out, on the basis on american neoliberal economists (carried out by both left and right), ruining the social aspect of the country, it's concepts of solidarity, reducing money to highest common factor, and letting a signifiant proportion of the country die, leaving them poor, while reducing the standard of living for many east europeans

You're from the east germany? No? Do you agree or disagree with me?.

It's true that the economic "losers" of the political transition process are more prone to vote for AfD (or NPD for that mattter).

However, I'd say that the underlying authoritarian and xenophobic tendencies are also present in people who have in fact profited from the political transition. And those tendencies were present in 1989/90 as much as they were in 2000 or today.

So both is true, really. The Communist regimes laid the groundwork, and it fully broke through with people who suffered the most disadvantages from the regime change.

I realise that the nazi party was stronger in East Germany, but could that not be, right-wing frustation, and with virluent anti-communism, people voting for the NPD.

Underlying authoritarian tendencies might have been there, but East German "nationalism" was more about social nationalism, and solidarity towards your brother, as well as workers around the socialist block, then xenophobia.

[Intell]

I realise that the nazi party was stronger in East Germany, but could that not be, right-wing frustation, and with virluent anti-communism, people voting for the NPD.

I seriously doubt that many people voted NPD due to "anti-communism". Certainly not those voters who were ticket-splitting and gave their first vote to the PDS candidate and the second vote to the NPD, which is a well-documented phenomenon. If anything the NPD was successful due to anti-democratism and also anti-capitalism (given that the NPD isn't really that much of a pro-free market party). If you're anti-communist you vote FDP or CDU.

Underlying authoritarian tendencies might have been there, but East German "nationalism" was more about social nationalism, and solidarity towards your brother, as well as workers around the socialist block, then xenophobia.

It was not just "social nationalism". Granted, the East German nationalism was toned down a bit in the latter phase of the regime.

Especially in the beginning GDR government propaganda was all about: "integration of West Germany into Western alliances is solidifying the partition of the German nation and preventing the re-unfication of the German people, West Germany is merely an American puppet state, Germany must regain its national sovereignty" (yeah, pretty ironic rhetoric coming from a Soviet puppet state).

But the rampant flag-waving and the emphasis on the GDR as a decidedly German nation as opposed to the "Westernized", "Americanized", and "globalized" Federal Republic were retained until the end.

Ironically, the two political parties which are the most pro-Russian and the most anti-American nowdays are the AfD and the Left.

I guess nationalism was widely used,, in a socialistic, anti-imperialistic sense (soviet imperalism doesn't count obviously)  but it wasn't xenophobic.

Huh ticket splitting between PDS and neo-nazis when the East German regime was based on being anti-fascist is weird, is there proof, or is it from experience, was this in 1990, or at or after 2005? Huh. In 1990 unified election, neo-nazis got only very slightly higher votes than in the election before it. The inclusion of East Germany didn't result in the rise of the vote for the neo-nazis, probably meaning that neo-nazis that they weren't strong in the east in the start of unified Germany (is this correct or not?).

They started gaining in 2005, midst the SPD's and attacks on social welfare, labour laws and attacks on the poor was this when East German economy started going down also (or was this the case always?).

[Intell]

I guess nationalism was widely used,, in a socialistic, imperialistic sense (soviet imperalism doesn't count obviously)  but it wasn't xenophobic.

I guess you could make the case that nationalism usually leads to xenophobia too whether its intended or not.

I disagree quite profusely but alright.

Huh ticket splitting between PDS and neo-nazis when the East German regime was based on being anti-fascist is weird,

The official anti-fascism of the East German state was superficial at best. It was mostly directed at West Germany for propaganda purposes too, claiming that the government of West was run by former members of the Nazi regime (which was at least in part true of course). However, the question "how much responsibility did WE have for the Nazis' crimes?" was never asked in East Germany. It was the fault of the West Germans, while the East Germans were supposedly clean.

This was of course a result of the East German regime being run by older communists who were either living in exile in Moscow during World War II or had to endure the concentration camps themselves. This had a couple of side effects though:

1) The extent of guilt or responsibility of whose who did live in Germany during WWII was never really discussed in East German society, at least not to the extent it was done in West Germany.

2) The Holocaust against the Jews and other minorities was downplayed in East German historiography. Instead, the communists were often portrayed as the primary victims of the Nazi regime.

3) East Germany was primarily regarded as a country of the victims of Nazism and not as a country of perpetrators.

4) As a result of 2) and 3), East Germany refused to pay reparations to Israel after the war. This was seen as West Germany's job.

5) One of the so-called bloc parties of the "National Front" which were formed alongside the SED in East Germany in the late 40s was the National Democratic Party of Germany (NDPD) which purpose was to attract former Nazis and former Wehrmacht officers and win them over for the new regime.

6) And then of course you have phenomena like the different attitude the East German government had toward the emerging skinhead and punk scenes in the country in the mid-80s. Stasi reports from the era make note of the "positive attitude" skinheads had toward patriotism and military service, while punks were considered bums whose hear had to be cut.
[/quote]

On the issue of skinheads, is it the case the skin heads were left-wing and patriotic to socialist east germany, and therefore left-wing and not xenophobic, and for lot of them that continued, however for some, and emerging germans, the unemployment, and the loss of jobs in the East cause some to vote for far-right parties.

...is there proof, or is it from experience, was this in 1990, or at or after 2005?

It was reported in the news here and then. The first I heard of the phenomenon was in 1998, I think (see below). It's confirmed by anecdotal evidence I heard from individual people. I think it's possible that scientific studies exist on that too.[/quote]

Because of rising unemployment, that makes sense, resulting in people voting for anti-establishment parties, I think it would be also prevalent in 2005, and 2009.

In 1990 unified election, neo-nazis got only very slightly higher votes than in the election before it. The inclusion of East Germany didn't result in the rise of the vote for the neo-nazis, probably meaning that neo-nazis that they weren't strong in the east in the start of unified Germany (is this correct or not?).

Well, it's true that there was a lot of enthusiasm about the re-unification and hence not much political dissatisfaction in East Germany in 1990. This led to East Germans overwhelmingly casting their vote for the incumbent center-right government in 1990 (CDU and FDP). Also note that the PDS' vote share was very modest in 1990, compared to later elections. [/quote]

What I expected

They started gaining in 2005, midst the SPD's and attacks on social welfare, labour laws and attacks on the poor was this when East German economy started going down also (or was this the case always?).

It started around the mid-90s when unemployment rates spiked in the East. The right-wing extremist DVU won 12.9% of the vote in the 1998 Saxony-Anhalt state election, 5.3% in the 1999 Brandenburg state election, and 6.1% in the 2004 Brandenburg state election. The NPD won 9.2% in the 2004 Saxony election, and 7.3% in the 2006 Mecklenburg-Vorpommern election. The DVU eventually merged into the NPD in 2011.
[/quote]

Rising unemployment and a sense of not feeling in touch with the elite, globalistic west german establishment, makes sense.

[Intell]

On the issue of skinheads, is it the case the skin heads were left-wing and patriotic to socialist east germany, and therefore left-wing and not xenophobic, and for lot of them that continued, however for some, and emerging germans, the unemployment, and the loss of jobs in the East cause some to vote for far-right parties.
 

No, those were actual, racist skinheads.

Ah, that sucks then.

[Intell]

This is one of the few instances where the Atlas results are much better than the expected actual results.

The far right getting 23% of the vote is SO great

Exactly!

I genuinely do not understand how anyone of Jewish background (let alone, anyone with a shred of basic human decency) can embrace the European far-Right (more specifically, the German far-Right - some deeply dark irony there). And no, this is not some concern trolling from me; I'm honestly perplexed by this, unless it is in fact you who's trolling here.

The AFD isn't really that far-right.

It really is, I'm hoping you didn't vote for them.